Lactation support conference in Ireland - the quiet part out loud

[ArabellaScott]

https://genspect.org/where-does-male-lactation-fit-in-breastfeeding-support-networks/

'This year’s program lists a lactation consultant called Jacob Engelsman speaking on “communicating inclusively: creating gender-affirming clinical spaces for families” and “lactation support for gender-diverse families”.'

'Jacob Engelsman is a Certified Lactation Consultant based in the US. He describes himself as an infant care specialist, speaker, and writer. He is the author of a recently published book, Lactation for the Rest of Us: A Guide for Queer and Trans Parents and Helpers, and specialises in inducing lactation in non-gestational parents (parents who haven’t given birth). “Lactation is for anyone” Jacob tells us in this podcast interview.
Engelsman’s interest and expertise is not limited to lactation for the purpose of feeding an infant. One of his previous presentations was “Inducing Lactation for Kinksters” and according to his CV he has been giving various talks including on lactation at Frolicon, an adult lifestyle and fetish convention held annually in Atlanta, Georgia with substantial programming around kink, BDSM, sexuality, polyamory, LGBTQ+ relationships and alternative sexual/family cultures.
He is not a nurse, midwife, doctor, or healthcare professional (nor does he claim to be). He is not a parent or someone with personal experience of breastfeeding. He got his certification five years ago and prior to that worked in the food service industry.'
...
'Why would a man want to lactate? In Engelsman’s own words:
“There are several reasons a person may choose to lactate regardless of whether they can gestate a child…a non-gestational parent might choose to induce lactation as a way to feel emotionally closer to the baby, assert their own feelings of parenthood, gender euphoria, or just for the unique experience of it.” (p.49)
Writing specifically about “cis” men, that is men who identify as men, he says:
“As to the question of why they would want to, it seems reasonable to believe that cis men want to lactate for the same reasons as anyone else. Which is to say, usually to feed and bond with their baby and to a lesser extent for curiosity, fun, or sexual gratification.” (p.152)'

Alison O'Connor has a piece for the Sunday Times, to be in the paper tomorrow. The online article is behind a paywall, but here's an automated summary.

So nowhere near 10% then
I think (as so often on this issue) you're taking it personally and not reading what I actually said.

Of COURSE there are some women who won't be able to breast feed, and in the VAST majority of those cases, there will be an actual physical explanation. Which in fact fits with what you're saying.

I was making a very different point, but as you have decided to take it as personal criticism, I can't expect you to read it objectively, so I'll leave it at that.

Laoise de Brún of the Countess had a good article in the Irish Daily Mail on Friday. The images are from Wicklow Women 4 Women.

Online version: https://tinyurl.com/mwscfvde

Thanks, I'll buy the paper tomorrow. Trying to gather together some examples of how the story is covered differently (if at all) for conversations on dog walks! I find if you can say something like... I read this in the paper, what do you think? It is a good intro to the conversation.
I'm enjoying the line of wondering what it will be like when The President meets The President soon. How the conversation might go if this topic was discussed...

@ArabellaScott @Emilesgran theres a reason that I wrote “the percentage of women who cannot physiologically produce any milk at all is relatively low ( not great stats reliability but perhaps 5 to10%)” 5% is generally quoted by WHO/ UNICEF but as soon as you start to look into it any deeper you find that lactation issues aren't even clearly defined….so is a particular study looking at primary lactation failure, secondary lactation failure , breast hypoplasia, hormone issues,p ( thyroid, PCOS) failure to produce milk due to the stress of a c-section or a pethidine assisted birth etc??. Is there a true failure of primary lactation or is it because hospitals/ midwives are unable to care and support women enough through those difficult early days until their milk comes in properly, so babies losing weight are moved onto formula early on? researchhttps://www.droracle.ai/articles/1255677/what-is-the-prevalence-of-primary-lactation-failure-caused (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13006-025-00699-4) comments that “””There is very little research on the incidence of primary low milk supply. One large epidemiological study conducted in New Zealand in 1958 found that at least 6% of participants did not breastfeed due to primary low milk supply caused by IGT or other medical issues 11]. A more recent study of 319 breastfeeding mothers in the U.S. conducted in 1990 found that 15% of participants had persistent lactation insufficiency 12]. However, the principal author subsequently stated that she believed the true rate of primary low milk supply for western women to be 4% 13]. There have been no further large-scale studies in recent decades to investigate the incidence of primary low milk supply“””. I will try and post a pic of a very valid quote taken from https://www.lowmilksupplyfoundation.org/. medical misogyny as per usual

No, I read what you said clearly.
I never said the figure was 10%, I said it was 5%. Either you're not reading my posts correctly or you're engaging in bad faith. So yes, I agree we should leave the topic there.

Very much agree. And it would be useful for peer supporters etc to have this info, thabks to PP for sharing links.

Glad to see the weekend papers picking up the kinkster Lactator.

Bit late with this but regarding Domperidone, my understanding is that when women use it to induce lactation they stop taking it when they start producing milk because they no longer need it. I also thought there was a period of time when they express and dispose of the milk to ensure the drug is out of their system, is that correct?
Whereas men have to keep taking it and nobody knows how much babies have ingested? Selfish bastards, the men not the babies.

I have a bit of an interest because I am prescribed Domperidone for nausea as I have to avoid throwing up and get migraines. I have only ever taken one tablet at a time because it works, thank goodness! I think I can take it 3 time a day but I have stern advice from the GP to be very careful with it because it has undesirable side effects.

Also, sorry to be annoying, I found breastfeeding as easy as falling off a log, and was a bit taken aback because surely it couldn't be that easy and I must be doing it wrong! But when a young relative was expecting her first and getting very wound up about being determined to feed but gloomily exepocting it to be difficult I mentioned that she might find it really easy, after all I did. She told me it was the most helpful thing anyone said to her about it.
Just another aspect of this whole marvellous, infuriating, easy and impossible thing.

@EmpressDomesticatednottamed i am neither a dr nor a nurse/ midwife but this quote sums it up to me “”Domperidone is a relatively safe drug, but it would be unethical and unprofessional to expose you and your baby to a drug you do not need, and all measures to improve breastfeeding management should be made and documented prior to a decision to advocate its use””. For me there are understandable reasons why a woman with a pre term baby in NICU would take this, seeing as women are generally weaned off it once their supply gets established - but I can’t see any ethically justifiable reason for a biological man to take this.

I didn't say YOU said it though: you joined in an ongoing conversation based on that claim which a PP made: "the percentage of women who cannot physiologically produce any milk at all is relatively low ( not great stats reliability but perhaps 5 to10%)" - it's only about a page back.

Domperidone is used off label. There isn't much evidence either way, lthough anecdotally I've heard docs are very loathe to prescribe for breastfeeding.

https://www.nhs.uk/medicines/domperidone/pregnancy-breastfeeding-and-fertility-while-taking-domperidone/

The ALCI position is ‘supporting lactating families’.

Once upon a time I would have interpreted ’supporting lactating families’ as a clumsy abbreviation for ‘supporting families where a mother is lactating’. Now, though, it feels like they are saying the quiet bit quietly. Still won’t say it? Families do not lactate, only women lactate.

Well, they still cant bring themselves to say 'breastfeeding'.

All that effort to overcome stigma of breasts being used to feed babies. Wasted.

His piece is vomit inducing. Revolting. All about the men. Who cares about the babies.

Today's Irish Daily Mail: "Minister shrugs off concerns over 'kinksters' lactation talk".

Image is from wicklowwomen4women. A comment from The Countess.

ALCI have published their new conference timetable, and Engelsman is nowhere to be seen.

I hope that someone in the US has reported him to social services.

I thought they'd already said they had disinvited him, just said it very very quietly.

What a weak response from the Health Minister. I do hope most people in Ireland see this for what it is. (Of course they do, even if some won't admit it. We can all see this for what it is).

Good. This man should be nowhere near babies or children.

Please tell me he is not a father. Please. It has just occurred to me in a nightmare way that he might be.

He's not a father, as far as I know. He works at a nursery, though.

A quick google search of his name comes up with the first three pages of results either something about his book, or news/social media about the conference and the controversy surrounding it because of his "research." And the comments are NOT GOOD. If anyone looks him up now, that's what they'll see first.

If he's got any kind of a brain, he'll be keeping a very low profile right now. (He won't because men like that think they are untouchable).

If I were his employer, I'd be firing him yesterday. He will end up being investigated someday, and who wants to be involved in that?

I wonder what about that post was so terrible. It was to the effect that I wouldn't want him in charge of any nursery-age child of mine. Which I wouldn't.

That's the third deletion today that I've seen. I emailed MN and my post was reinstated.