Tell me you don't know what a cult is...

[Seethlaw]

... without telling me you don't know what a cult is.

I grew up in a cult-ish church. It had some very unpleasant aspects to it indeed. The very concept of the GC movement as a cult utterly baffles me, and irritates me quite a bit, I must admit.

Where is our Leader? Some say JKR is that, even though she obviously didn't create the movement, since she joined it after it already existed. Okay, but then where is the cult of personality? Where is the hanging onto her every word? Where is the compulsory study of her life? Where is the regular and compulsory show of support of her as our leader?

What are the specific beliefs that random people outside the movement don't believe? "Men can't become women and vice versa" is not such a belief, since loads of people who would never call themselves GC also believe it. So what are our specific beliefs?

What is the rite of entry into the movement? How does one know that they themselves or someone else is a member of the movement?

Where are the big gatherings where the leaders speak The Word? Where are the regular gatherings where the members reinforce each other's beliefs?

What are the demands made of the members? Where are the compulsory meetings? Where are the financial requirements? Where are the specific behaviours we have to adhere to?

Where are the punishments for leaving the group? How do you even know you've left at all? And where are the stories of abuse and control told by the former members?

I could go on forever.

Accusing GC people of belonging to a cult is just as ridiculous and offensive as claiming, for example, that there's a trans genocide going on. It's deliberately appropriating the real suffering of other people to make a completely false and unsupportable point because there's no actual valid point to make. It's utterly reprehensible and shameful.

Virtually all my children and my son inlaw agree with me 🤷🏻

tide is definitely turning towards more’gc’ views

I tell this story frequently on here, but my cousin's child transitioned, socially first, then medically. A few years later, realising that 'living as a man' was not the answer to the issues she was facing, she detransitioned. Unfortunately the time she was on T have taken their toll and she is left with longterm health problems as a result.

Her parents affirmed, though they had deep misgivings. They were told she was a suicide risk otherwise. They were scared, they wanted to do what was right. So they supported her in her choices.

My cousin's child has been on quite the journey and she now realises the extent to which she was misled by the professionals who should have known better. It is fair to say that there are a lot of complicated feelings, from everyone, about the whole situation.

For what it's worth, feel deeply sorry for my cousin, who genuinely did what she felt was right in the circumstances. It is criminal that they were all let down by the medical profession.

It's all very self centred isn't it? I do try not to join in with criticism of parents in these circumstances - even those who parade their children round in public and become bullying allies. Parenting's one of the hardest things we do and it can be frightening at times as we have to allow our children to rightly gain their freedom and independence while we're aware of some of the deeply unsuitable adults / activist groups seeking to influence them , aided and abetted by social media in addition to all the other hazards the young face today.

It's always disappointing to see those who claim to be parents turning on other parents and displaying zero insight and compassion while splurging hate onto someone courageous enough to share their situation. But that's what social media has brought us I suppose. Access to the views of some people you'd normally try to avoid given their behaviour.

Thank you. My hope is that, in time they will realise that the whole of gender ideology is a destructive lie. I also hope they will come back to me before something happens that would make the rift permanent (such as one of us dying).

They are at an age when they undoubtedly feel invincible, but I have little doubt they would have huge regrets if something happened to one of us. The whole thing is irrational in the extreme. It’s a political difference and never, in a million years, would I have cut my parents off because they didn’t see eye to eye with me on politics.

It is the biggest signal to me, of the cult-like behaviour of transactivism.

Worth saying that I'm sure a lot of us noticed that TPA was pretty cruel to you too in that post @RapidOnsetGenderCritic , and you have my/our support too. You are obviously trying hard to be the very best Dad that you can be for your child.

Yes, huge respect from me to @RapidOnsetGenderCritic I was very fortunate in my children’s schooling, where it barely cropped up. I could easily have been in your position, I suspect, had things been different. There are many families broken on the wheel of gender ideology.

Thanks! I have various faults as a Dad, and I would love to have the sort of conversation with my son in which I can acknowledge that, without my apologies being taken as an admission that my worldview is wrong and that I must do as I'm told by the genderists.

I am not looking for sympathy when I tell parts of our story. I am pushing back at the narrative that says that a parent's duty is to make their children comfortable, particularly comfortable in their belief systems that pull them in a harmful direction. I'm not capable of saying "bless you my child, do whatever makes you feel better in the moment" when I can see dangers and harms. So I have said that being told to use demanded language with a threat of estrangement is coercion, knowing that in the short term and maybe in the long term estrangement was the likely outcome. Like the biblical story of the prodigal son, I would like nothing more than to see my son return to reality. I just hope that he doesn't have to hit rock bottom first. And that his wonderful friends don't abandon him if he does hit rock bottom – but why would they care, if he is no longer their pet transwoman?

Oh, yes, "hate speech". A conveniently vague, emotive cliche that is always wheeled out to cover anything short of sycophantic agreement.

Sometimes parents have to tell it like it is, not how their child would like it to be. That's part of their job.

What is this 'hate speech'?

That humans can't change sex? Is that what you think is 'hate speech'?

Telling a female child that they are a female child and nothing can change that, is not hate speech.

Yes it often is, especially when it comes to people simply not believing that men can be women. Hope that helps.

Parenting is the hardest job in the world and most of us have bugger all training for it. Any parent who says they haven't made mistakes is lying. Your son is keeping open a line of communication. That is a massive positive. As PP said, there are detransitioners who cannot believe that their parents didn't just say 'No' to their delusion.

Yes. It's called tough love. Those who aren't parents won't have a clue about all this as their lives don't encompass the overpowering love and responsibility for a child's life and future. But balancing support and honesty, loving challenge while trying to build confidence are skills that parents learn - and sometimes fail at.

That's what's so special about Mumsnet - support for parents and parenting. Of course it's why those who seek to dismiss the importance of family spend so much time on here criticising.

We have been told over and over again that merely disagreeing, merely saying that no-one can change sex and that there are times when sex matters, is "hate". So pardon me for being sceptical when a TRA starts slinging accusations of "hate speech". Transactivists have cried wolf far too often to be taken at face value. Everything is "hate" when people are in an unreasonable frame of mind. The word is becoming meaningless.

"It is criminal that they were all let down by the medical profession."

Yes it is.

I've just been having a think about compassion.

I feel compassionate towards the parents of children who have been estranged because their children were pulled into gender ideology like your cousin, @PriOn1 and @RapidOnsetGenderCritic. I feel compassionate for the children of those parents.

I've said before, repeatedly, that I feel compassionate towards trans identifying people. That I don't hate them, or want them to "disappear" or be "erased", or whatever. I recognise that they have rights too etc etc.

Examining how far my compassion extends, I find I even feel compassionate towards parents like TransParentlyAnnoyed, even though she keeps coming here and throwing angry words around, misrepresenting what we say, believe and do, while calling us all hateful bigots.

I still agree with PriOn1 and AimsAndObjectives that the affirmation only approach results in damaged children, and cognitive dissonance for the parents who need to convince themselves that they did the right thing or face the real horror of what has happened to their child and the fact they went along with it. Sex still matters, men can't be women, and women can't be men, material reality can't be changed by words, feelings, or fervent wishes.

PriOn1
"I realise you can’t accept that we are correct as that would mean you’ve irretrievably damaged your child’s health by believing in pseudoscience, so your defence of transition is understandable, but your attack on me is way off mark."

AimsAndObjectives
"Yes, that is what I am taking away from this thread. A burst of anger from several posters, directed at women, which is actually a howl of anguish for the mistakes that have been made by so many activists, parents and 'allies' in the trans non-community. Not a cult, a mass delusion that has gone terribly, terribly wrong for everyone involved."

I think really the only people I can't find any real compassion for are the people who are purposely abusive (although, I know that could be considered a bit of a subjective term), and people that cynically profited from, and with total disregard for, the harms done to women, children and vulnerable adults.

I don't want to add to the "you're all in a cult" fodder, but I think that's a fairly common, dare I say moderate, position to take?

But yet I, and people who might happen to also agree with my take on this, are frothing, hate filled transphobes according to TRAs. Now this (fairly?) common, (reasonably?) moderate belief is being presented as cult-like. It's a beyond ridiculous claim when you actually look at what's actually going on.

Do you have a bit of an issue with reading comprehension or is this some tedious deflection attempt?

Who are the 'GC lunatics'on this thread that you refer to?

So what makes GCs 'lunatics'?

The post you approvingly quoted accused parents of alienating their children with "hate speech", in case you hadn't noticed. That is what I was referring to - that, and all the accusations of "hate" flung by transactivists at women (and some men), online and in real life, over the past decade and more, for saying things that are not "hate" at all.

So the truth is hate speech then according to you.

That's really illogical, silly even. Yet you're telling other posters to give serious responses.

Sod! Sorry @Shedmistress I quoted your post by accident!

I was aiming at quoting @TheTRAsAreOutToGetMe post

There is also the very sobering point that if and when a child eventually starts to question the delusion, they need to be able to turn to someone they trust. Someone who didn't lie to them and affirm their delusion. The parent who stuck with the truth can be that person. The parent who affirmed can't.

Tsk, not lunatics, it was “lunactics” which I’m sure means something else entirely!

That’s an excellent point.

I picked it up from something I was reading about detransitioners. It was so powerful it stuck in my memory.

The second one then, I guess.