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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we a cult?

1000 replies

CyclingSam · 11/08/2026 11:01

I keep reading that sex realists, of which I am one, are a cult. Perhaps a genderist could be so kind as to explain what a cult is, and why we qualify. Sometimes one of us calls them a cult too. Who has a better case, hmmm?

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CassOle · 13/08/2026 19:38

Just a quick check-in - still no evidence of mammals changing sex.

I did see some 'semolina pilchard climbing the Eiffel Tower' type word nonsense, though.

DialSquare · 13/08/2026 19:39

Boiledbeetle · 13/08/2026 19:36

Only because I'd removed the knickers after a terrible dress rehearsal meant I really did keep getting my knickers in a twist! Health and Safety insisted I remove the hazard from the act.

.

Cat Wow GIF
Catiette · 13/08/2026 19:39

Boiledbeetle · 13/08/2026 19:36

Only because I'd removed the knickers after a terrible dress rehearsal meant I really did keep getting my knickers in a twist! Health and Safety insisted I remove the hazard from the act.

Re: your ownership of Cohen, my image was of a beetle (somehow not unlike the Luggage) grinning widely with scarily sparkly teeth as it scuttled away with a dribbling warrior hero in hot pursuit. 🤷‍♀️

Catiette · 13/08/2026 19:42

Catiette · 13/08/2026 19:04

Harry Potter is absolutely full of textual evidence that JK Rowling is disgusted by some body types, and keen to humiliate

Just to build on my above, this is the kind of thinking I mean. A global canon of stereotype, archetype, parody and satire; the Roald Dahl tradition of classic children's fiction; the reality of human nature and the death of the author... all reduced into the above absolutist condemnation.

I really, really dislike this tendency to deny who and what we are nowadays. We're animals. We don't see clearly or think clearly. We're tribal, driven by biological imperative. Avenue Q's "Everyone's a little bit racist". The fact that when I was in my scared-of-flying period, on hearing I was on a plane with a female pilot, for a split second I felt more scared, against every rational truth I know and believe.

The way to make humanity better is not to deny what we are in pursuit of some kind of impossible utopian ideal. It's certainly not to interpret an author using the age-old tool of clumsy caricature to encourage kids to read as a "Bad Person Who Is Keen To Humiliate".

Doing that? Well, it's another example of that tribalism, really. The tells are the total dismissal of the slightest possibility of the context I outline above, and the extreme language used. Call her out, and I'm safe, at least. Not a pretty instinct, either - indeed, the same one that leads to fat-shaming.

Black and white, instead of grey.

Belatedly saw you'd addressed this one, Flirts. I did find it hard to understand a Lit. MA attributing Dudley's tail to the author's Unambiguously Bad Character.

DialSquare · 13/08/2026 19:42

If we are in a cult, so is the Supreme Court.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/08/2026 19:51

Stonehenger · 13/08/2026 17:58

I don’t think that actually plays out. It’s much worse for body shaming than e.g northern lights trilogy or something like that. I think HP was actually bad ‘for its time’, at the time.

I actually agree with you there.

But I wasn't talking about Northern Lights or other more literary children's books that were contempraneous with HP and informed by the mores of the literary scene of the time.

HP was so sucessful exactly because it was a throwback to earlier styles of children's writing.

JKR didn't set out to write a work of art or a knowingly crafted evolution of the fantasy genre. It might have been the 90s but she was charmingly unconcerned about ensuring her audience knew she only enjoyed giving them cliches if they shared a knowing postmoden tone.

She set out to write an old school old school kids yarn with wizards and funny chocolate frogs and chums. And it got away from her and got far far far bigger than she ever anticipated. And as her characters grew and the world changed you can see in the books as they progress she did her best to move it towards more modern sensibilities, but the bones are old ones.

HP's bloodline is comics and Chalky and the Worst Witch and the Great Ghost Rescue. It's Asterix. It's maybe a bit of the Princess and the Goblin. And lashings and lashings of Enid Blyton with the worst bits sieved out but a lot still left in that was ok in a 90s sensibility but doesn't fly now, especially not when an army of dementors are pouring through it constantly to justfy their hatred of the woman.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 13/08/2026 19:51

DialSquare · 13/08/2026 19:42

If we are in a cult, so is the Supreme Court.

It has been bought though, don't forget. By far right money and the Russians...or something

Catiette · 13/08/2026 19:53

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/08/2026 19:51

I actually agree with you there.

But I wasn't talking about Northern Lights or other more literary children's books that were contempraneous with HP and informed by the mores of the literary scene of the time.

HP was so sucessful exactly because it was a throwback to earlier styles of children's writing.

JKR didn't set out to write a work of art or a knowingly crafted evolution of the fantasy genre. It might have been the 90s but she was charmingly unconcerned about ensuring her audience knew she only enjoyed giving them cliches if they shared a knowing postmoden tone.

She set out to write an old school old school kids yarn with wizards and funny chocolate frogs and chums. And it got away from her and got far far far bigger than she ever anticipated. And as her characters grew and the world changed you can see in the books as they progress she did her best to move it towards more modern sensibilities, but the bones are old ones.

HP's bloodline is comics and Chalky and the Worst Witch and the Great Ghost Rescue. It's Asterix. It's maybe a bit of the Princess and the Goblin. And lashings and lashings of Enid Blyton with the worst bits sieved out but a lot still left in that was ok in a 90s sensibility but doesn't fly now, especially not when an army of dementors are pouring through it constantly to justfy their hatred of the woman.

Edited

Please tell me you write book reviews. Gorgeous. And true.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/08/2026 19:54

Catiette · 13/08/2026 19:42

Belatedly saw you'd addressed this one, Flirts. I did find it hard to understand a Lit. MA attributing Dudley's tail to the author's Unambiguously Bad Character.

I'm glad you missed my reply then, because I very much enjoyed yours.

DialSquare · 13/08/2026 20:02

It’s not like there wasn’t other fat characters in HP who were not depicted as bad. Hagrid, The Fat Fryer, The Fat Lady, Professor Sprout etc. It’s just typical TRA behaviour cherry picking parts of the book to try to make JKR look bad.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 13/08/2026 20:09

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2026 12:29

Why does this surprise you?

Once upon a time you pretty much automatically got banned for merely suggesting that gender identity was cult like.

I really pushed back on this because it was important to see what was going on in terms of linguistic use, coercion, propaganda techniques and straight up bullying and doxxing.

So this subject is a sore subject on MN, in part because even MNHQ got this issue very wrong at one point. As much as I'm thankful they did allow some discussion within limitations. These issues are key methods of control around the abuse of women more generally so actually it's really important to be able to identify them as they go way beyond the trans discussion.

Trans activism definitely peaked in the UK around the time of Lily Madigan in terms of how far the madness went. It was a pivotal point because it's where it became so embedded and you risked your job and career to speak the truth - that's authoritarian not liberal. Authoritarian loss of free speech is central to any cult. It wasn't until Forstater that things started to change.

It is good at this point that we can talk about this relatively freely compared to where we were.

It's massively important that we state the history and reflect on the timeline and keep this as part of the narrative rather than allowing activists to control the narrative because it shows how this progressed and why things have gone the way they have.

Madigan was a middle class male uni student who campaigned using bullying techniques, secret Facebook groups which included politicians against working class women with a long socialist agenda and track record. Some of whom were lesbians. The case was as far removed from the far right narrative as it's possible to be. It was way before JKR spoke.

The whole mantra of No Debate was central to everything that happened. It was absolutely about suppression of concerns.

because even MNHQ got this issue very wrong at one point.

Did HQ ever apologise to LangCleg over that?

ElenOfTheWays · 13/08/2026 20:09

yesyoureinacult · 13/08/2026 19:20

Cult-like behaviour!
Arguing that every single reputable mainstream organisation is ‘captured’. That includes all major medical orgs, unions, women’s groups, charities, the UN etc. No evidence is given for this except that they have the temerity to disagree with the people on this board.

Idolisation of someone seen as a ‘leader’. Well plenty of evidence for this with regards to JK Rowling on this thread and it extends to demonising anyone critical of her children’s books. One might think that some people have never read further than Harry Potter.

‘Information’ that is only from youtube videos, anti-trans orgs, twitter, or supposedly word of mouth. Many links to far right sites and videos because nothing counts as far right as long as it is against trans people.

Losing friends and family. Many people come on here saying their friends/family disagree with them. Overwhelmingly they are told that they are either ‘captured’, ‘scared’ or ‘stupid’. Advice is usually to get new friends who agree i.e. the people on this board.

‘We are about women’s rights’ - except there is no-one too homophobic, transphobic, racist or sexist as long as they are against trans people. Any criticism becomes a ‘purity spiral’ so that ideas you have, have moved (perhaps without you noticing) to all sorts of bigotry. Women who disagree with you are ‘handmaidens’, ‘stupid’, ‘ignorant’, ‘scared’ or ‘captured’.

If anyone does come with an argument they are repeatedly insulted, told they have no argument, told they are men, told they are trolls or there are numerous posts about tea cakes - until people either agree or go away. They are also presented with false assertions about what they have said, so that the original point made is obscured. It happens so often it is surely purposeful.

There is an obvious shift towards opposing bodily autonomy and reproductive rights. Despite constantly saying that people on here are ‘life-long lefties’ there is no actual evidence of that. Cue much satisfaction from ‘the wise women of mumsnet’, and a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Support for violent men as long as they are against trans people. The Royce White case is one of many where people ignore domestic violence perpetrators if they are ‘on the same side’. And talking of the WNBA, if anyone is actually interested in women’s sports in the US then you should read the real threat, which is coming from the Heritage Foundation as an attack on title IX. MAGA is laughing their socks off at the opportunity this manufactured culture war is giving them. https://www.heritage.org/gender/report/title-ixs-failed-experiment-why-accommodating-sex-differences-beats-engineered-parity

Everyone secretly agrees with you but no-one will say so because they’re ‘scared’. Trans people are both all powerful and a tiny minority who no-one cares about. The cognitive dissonance this must create is - well …

Governments all support trans people to the detriment of women apparently, ignoring that the most powerful government in the world attacks both trans and women’s rights. Trans people are ‘fetishists’, ‘perverts’, ‘AGP’ or ‘mentally ill’ - unless it’s trans men who are ‘vulnerable’, ‘young’ ‘really lesbians’ etc etc etc. Trans children don’t exist, or need saving - until they hit 18 when they suddenly become ‘porn-addled’.

‘Humans understanding biology is not a cult’ - except you don’t understand biology or the fact that the majority of scientists (yes yes I know they’re all captured) think that human biology is complex, interesting, and there is much to learn. Reducing everyone to XX or XY is a simplistic model that leads to seeing women as mere baby carriers. Perhaps that is what the majority of posters on this board want - if so perhaps they should be honest about it.

The attitude to intersex people on this board is pretty disgusting - and I’m sure someone will now say ‘everyone is male or female’ - so ask yourself the question ‘who decides that’ and why, when genitalia, chromosomes and hormones may not match in the way you think they should. Why can’t intersex people live their lives as who they are rather than fitting neatly into a box that society has made.

There is no room in any of these descriptions for nuance, humanity or the fact that trans people, like the rest of us, are muddling through our lives. This is supposed to be a ‘discussion’ board, but the reality is it’s a board for a few hundred people who constantly congratulate themselves on knowing the ‘truth’ and think their gotcha questions are a sign of debate. There is also glee at misgendering as if, somehow, this is fighting for women’s rights.

This whole thread is an example of how, when confronted with some evidence that lots of women don’t agree with GCs and many people think that the board demonstrates cult-like behaviour - the ‘regulars’ come on swiftly to shut the conversation down with lurid tales of trans people.

For those who will now pop up and say I’m a troll or I’ve posted and run. Yes I’ve posted and run - so don’t bother with your gotcha questions designed to put people off. The majority on this board are not worth engaging with because they’re not interested in fighting for women’s rights but maybe - maybe - there are some who are not too far gone.

Gimmie a D
Gimmie an A
Gimmie an R
Gimmie a V
Gimmie an O

Chickadeeinme · 13/08/2026 20:13

I used to work for Penguin books and I once had a chat with the editor who turned down Harry Potter. When I asked why she shrugged and said she saw it as no more than a twist on the old-fashioned boarding school stories. I think @FlirtsWithRhinoshas the lineage dead right.

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/08/2026 20:13

TransParentlyAnnoyed · 11/08/2026 21:03

Yes, of course you are.

Losing friends because of your 'beliefs' is the tell there. Along with worshipping people who have done terrible things, just because they're also transphobic (Linehan, Rowling, Trump, that guy from the NBA whose ex has a 50-year restraining order against him, Rod Liddle, Hadley Freeman, Kellie-Jay Keen etc).

Normal people do not spend all day obsessing over and inventing weird origin stories for a minority.

By contrast, I have a trans son. (I know, I never mention 😁) I'm horrified by the harassment and violence which he's suffered for being trans. And I chat to other people who are trans or pro-trans.

If someone pro-trans is outed as an abuser, they're dead to me.

And if my son detransed, I'd be fine with it. Unlikely since it didn't happen during the most violent years, but it's nothing to do with me. I support him whatever.

Anti-trans activists have been keen to tell me I 'transed' my son (!!), compare not rejecting him to child abuse, claim he's autistic (nope, though his brother's are and they're not trans) and have all manner of other absolutely insane theories.

They claim he wasn't allowed to be a tomboy, and is gay. When I say he grew up in his brother's cast-offs and I had to reluctantly accept his love for rainbows and glitter, that apparently made him trans too. Also, I created him for fashion purposes despite owning about two changes of clothes. He likes boys so they call him a confused straight girl.

Anything rather than listen to the simple truth: he is trans, gay and gnc.

Anything at all. There must be a theory which explains him.

I have lost zero friends since my son came out. I don't care if he detranses. I have no trans heroes. There is no belief system: I just want the abuse my son suffers to stop. All of my posting is reactive to the hate I see against trans people.

If anti-trans activism was solely about women's facilities (we have no safe spaces, they're just facilities) then what's with attacking everything trans people do? And I mean, everything: non-binary people using their chosen pronouns, the horribly ignorant comments about trans children's bodies, the fake outrage at 'womanface', taking the piss out of individual trans women, objecting to inclusive language...it's everything trans people do.

Here's a good test. Go without slagging off trans people for a week. Stop alternately exciting and hurting yourselves with adrenaline and cortisol at all the trans-under-the-bed stories. See how long you can last without reading about trans people.

Finally, the Queer Milk story. An LGBTQIA+ parent support group, basically a cup of tea & natter. No chestfeeding trans women even reported to have attended. And look how so many of you went full Pizzagate over it. That is cult behaviour.

Might as well face it, you're addicted to hate.

No, what people here are very attached to is the dignity and integrity of female people; having lived our lives first as girls and then as women; as mothers; sisters; wives; girlfriends. We are profoundly insulted, and also angered that this recent trend in post modern identity as turned into an authoritarian creed that brooks no dissent; sees itself as supremely righteous, and then casts slurs against the character of all those that won't pledge allegiance

Males are not female, and to call this recognition of reality. 'hate' reveals the indoctrinated and cultish nature of trans ideology - in which anyone who does not conform to the creed is seen as evil and/or hateful. This is typical of all evangelical churches, and of fundamentalist groups of any stripe.

The hall mark of a cult is expecting its adherents to believe in outlandish and unreasoned things - and when they question the tenets of that faith - they are then cast out and cut off. This particular trend has already peaked and had its day...as younger generations move on to new types and formulations of 'identity.'

Newgolddream123 · 13/08/2026 20:31

AimsAndObjectives · 13/08/2026 17:04

I think that we already have a consensus. The protected characterisitic of sex has been clarified by the SC ruling and explains that, where the word sex is written in the Equality Act, it has to mean biological sex. The PC of gender reassignment remains in place and protects people from discrimination etc on the grounds of their GR. Sports bodies are developing policies that enable trans-identified people to continue to play sport, while protecting the female category. Repeat polling indicates that the public doesn't mind people identifying as a different gender but that they don't seem to believe that someone actually changes sex, nor that gender identity should ever be used in place of sex in situations where sex matters.
I agree that the debate about pronouns and descriptors will rumble on and will probably never be fully resolved, but the Forstater ruling suggests that compelled speech will not be possible from any quarter.

I’m not sure you understood my message, I was responding to someone who had corrected me and said I shouldn’t use “ trans women “ as a word but should use transwomen or TIM - the space I was talking about was a punctuation space. #notacult means that we will all have different views and “red lines” that may apply to this situation.I posted the yougov survey links upthread a while ago around poll findings .The consensus around what the word woman means has been around for millennia and certainly none(?) of us who became adults in the 20th century would have ever dreamed that people would try to redefine the term to allow men into women’s only spaces. The consensus I mean is where do we go forwards now as a society from this point, seeing as most (?) people would accept there will continue to be trans people albeit hopefully fewer gender confused children being pushed into transitioning and fewer adults trying to push their entitlements to single sex spaces etc.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 13/08/2026 20:35

Stonehenger · 13/08/2026 13:29

Well I’d also distinguish between cis men and trans men! You don’t have to use the terminology; I’m just saying it does exist, and it solves the problem someone raised.

So would I. The former are men, and the latter are women. No need for the confusing language.

nutmeg7 · 13/08/2026 20:35

thegoodnews · 13/08/2026 08:02

Ah the same old fascist trick of an extreme example representing the whole.

And you people dare to proclaim yourselves as the stereotype police.

Fascist?

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 13/08/2026 20:40

BackToLurk · 13/08/2026 13:31

I wonder whether they think there is ever an occasion where a photograph can be used to illustrate a man behaving creepily. Or should women just not mention it.

Women being coerced into silence about male sexual inappropriateness (and worse) is absolutely the point of this particular TRA discourse. Remember the fox botherer's "tut and move away" advice and Laurie Penny telling us to "avert our eyes" from semi-erect penises in women's spaces.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 13/08/2026 20:57

ElenOfTheWays · 13/08/2026 16:10

American version
"Don't get your panties in a bunch (wad)"
Also said to both men and women

And when said to a man, there can be a little sideline in misandry, as it's not generally considered a compliment to suggest that a man is wearing 'knickers' or 'panties'. Except that most of us don't take offence as we're not that fragile in our male identity. And likewise, I've not come across a woman getting upset about these phrases previously.

Almost anything can be said in such a way as to belittle someone; it is possible to be offensive with innocuous words. And similarly, it's common for people to take offence where no offence was intended. We really must teach resilience, and for that matter truth, alongside kindness.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 13/08/2026 21:10

nutmeg7 · 13/08/2026 20:35

Fascist?

So 2023!

Clusterfuckular · 13/08/2026 21:11

yesyoureinacult · 13/08/2026 19:20

Cult-like behaviour!
Arguing that every single reputable mainstream organisation is ‘captured’. That includes all major medical orgs, unions, women’s groups, charities, the UN etc. No evidence is given for this except that they have the temerity to disagree with the people on this board.

Idolisation of someone seen as a ‘leader’. Well plenty of evidence for this with regards to JK Rowling on this thread and it extends to demonising anyone critical of her children’s books. One might think that some people have never read further than Harry Potter.

‘Information’ that is only from youtube videos, anti-trans orgs, twitter, or supposedly word of mouth. Many links to far right sites and videos because nothing counts as far right as long as it is against trans people.

Losing friends and family. Many people come on here saying their friends/family disagree with them. Overwhelmingly they are told that they are either ‘captured’, ‘scared’ or ‘stupid’. Advice is usually to get new friends who agree i.e. the people on this board.

‘We are about women’s rights’ - except there is no-one too homophobic, transphobic, racist or sexist as long as they are against trans people. Any criticism becomes a ‘purity spiral’ so that ideas you have, have moved (perhaps without you noticing) to all sorts of bigotry. Women who disagree with you are ‘handmaidens’, ‘stupid’, ‘ignorant’, ‘scared’ or ‘captured’.

If anyone does come with an argument they are repeatedly insulted, told they have no argument, told they are men, told they are trolls or there are numerous posts about tea cakes - until people either agree or go away. They are also presented with false assertions about what they have said, so that the original point made is obscured. It happens so often it is surely purposeful.

There is an obvious shift towards opposing bodily autonomy and reproductive rights. Despite constantly saying that people on here are ‘life-long lefties’ there is no actual evidence of that. Cue much satisfaction from ‘the wise women of mumsnet’, and a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Support for violent men as long as they are against trans people. The Royce White case is one of many where people ignore domestic violence perpetrators if they are ‘on the same side’. And talking of the WNBA, if anyone is actually interested in women’s sports in the US then you should read the real threat, which is coming from the Heritage Foundation as an attack on title IX. MAGA is laughing their socks off at the opportunity this manufactured culture war is giving them. https://www.heritage.org/gender/report/title-ixs-failed-experiment-why-accommodating-sex-differences-beats-engineered-parity

Everyone secretly agrees with you but no-one will say so because they’re ‘scared’. Trans people are both all powerful and a tiny minority who no-one cares about. The cognitive dissonance this must create is - well …

Governments all support trans people to the detriment of women apparently, ignoring that the most powerful government in the world attacks both trans and women’s rights. Trans people are ‘fetishists’, ‘perverts’, ‘AGP’ or ‘mentally ill’ - unless it’s trans men who are ‘vulnerable’, ‘young’ ‘really lesbians’ etc etc etc. Trans children don’t exist, or need saving - until they hit 18 when they suddenly become ‘porn-addled’.

‘Humans understanding biology is not a cult’ - except you don’t understand biology or the fact that the majority of scientists (yes yes I know they’re all captured) think that human biology is complex, interesting, and there is much to learn. Reducing everyone to XX or XY is a simplistic model that leads to seeing women as mere baby carriers. Perhaps that is what the majority of posters on this board want - if so perhaps they should be honest about it.

The attitude to intersex people on this board is pretty disgusting - and I’m sure someone will now say ‘everyone is male or female’ - so ask yourself the question ‘who decides that’ and why, when genitalia, chromosomes and hormones may not match in the way you think they should. Why can’t intersex people live their lives as who they are rather than fitting neatly into a box that society has made.

There is no room in any of these descriptions for nuance, humanity or the fact that trans people, like the rest of us, are muddling through our lives. This is supposed to be a ‘discussion’ board, but the reality is it’s a board for a few hundred people who constantly congratulate themselves on knowing the ‘truth’ and think their gotcha questions are a sign of debate. There is also glee at misgendering as if, somehow, this is fighting for women’s rights.

This whole thread is an example of how, when confronted with some evidence that lots of women don’t agree with GCs and many people think that the board demonstrates cult-like behaviour - the ‘regulars’ come on swiftly to shut the conversation down with lurid tales of trans people.

For those who will now pop up and say I’m a troll or I’ve posted and run. Yes I’ve posted and run - so don’t bother with your gotcha questions designed to put people off. The majority on this board are not worth engaging with because they’re not interested in fighting for women’s rights but maybe - maybe - there are some who are not too far gone.

Gosh, this is long.

Thanks for expending all that effort, I suppose.

What's the point if you're not even going to come back and discuss it all, though? It's just a long gish-gallop, bullshit upon strawman, false assertion upon hyperbole, force-teaming upon bad faith nonsense.

I see we've grown, though:

' it’s a board for a few hundred people'

In my day, there were only six of us, and we were all socks. And we were grateful.

NotAtMyAge · 13/08/2026 21:12

Stonehenger · 13/08/2026 17:16

There’s lots of places you can go if you’re interested in understanding more about intersectional feminism / specifically trans misogyny. Julia Serano coined the term and would be a good place to start.

A women could take a photo of a man behaving creepily, yes. I’ve been clear that my issue with J K Rowling’s action was using a photo of someone’s body with the intention of shaming them. That’s a different thing.

Edited

Julia Serano coined the term and would be a good place to start.

Of course he did. 🙄

Clusterfuckular · 13/08/2026 21:13

Fuck me, Kimberlé Crenshaw was the mother of intersectional feminism! There's absolutely nothing these men will not appropriate, is there?

Clusterfuckular · 13/08/2026 21:15

Feminism being 'intersectional' means addressing the many other issues that affect women, it doesn't mean opening feminism up to the poor menz.

BruachAbhann · 13/08/2026 21:23

Ah, this thread has been interesting. It's a very hot day here, Prosecco has been drunk and I appreciate the wit and clarity and brilliance of my fellow cult members. :-) I never foresaw the day I would be accused of being in a cult for knowing the difference between men and women but there you go.

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