Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551375-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-6

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

<TT appear to have a slight delay, but the court has finished for the day and the majority of the discussion was on timing and re-listing to hear the rest of the evidence>

Maybe at the end of this the panel will say “Is all you’ve got? We don’t need to hear from EW, the case is not made out, the claims are denied, enjoy an extra long weekend, everyone, and good night.”

Nobody expects the Trannish Inquisition.

From TT:

CA No. they are not denying anybody's experience. Not a hostile environment for TP.

[another person] thank you for posting I'm a TM and worried I am no longer safe at work.
CA - they are suggesting we should discriminate against people with a PC [of sex].
HH overwhelming response is [missed]

CA - support for trans colleagues. No foundation - nothing to suggest trans people are unsafe at work.

[similar exchange missed]

J says not going to get to next witness tomorrow.
Asks for availability for a relist.
J - We [the panel] think this will be to complete evidence - we think about 4 days. A part heard case going on a long time - needs relisting as soon as we can. (Time) window - rest of the year.

AL - September - has to be at home impossible to be in Leeds - remote would be possibility.

J - canvas availability in broadest possible way. Best way to address it. I'm afraid you are still on oath overnight [to CA].

We'll meet at 9.30am tomorrow.
Court rises

Thank you.

I was just thinking over what I wrote and thinking that this could be quite a key moment, when deference to every trans demands started to crumble.
CA's evidence may be the fulcrum....

..Why a fulcrum can cause something to crumble I'm not sure, I'm getting into metaphor melt-down, I plead temp in the high 20s and a day of HH😬

9.30 am start tomorrow

Why is that survey being bandied around as if it was some sort of objective fact. We don’t know much about the design of the survey, leading questions, who responded, how many responded, whether it was respond early and often by a few.

It may have some veracity, or it may be activist nonsense. Yet, it is being presented as if it unequivocally shows something to be a fact. Maybe it is just my suspicious mind, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they wanted it to give certain results, and then set about ensuring they got the replies to shore up that result. Possibly fact vs fiction is very moveable feast, and not a very alien concept, methinks. That might just be my cynicism.

Yes. That's what he wants to be called. It's his identity.

This came across a bit in FWS. The gender critical side were all ‘this is the only way it works to make it all make sense, it is logical and clear’ and the TWAW barrister was ‘I am instructed that …..’

As I'm now out of ice-cream, is is too early for a large G with Elderflower T?

What do we think the judge's actual motive is for permitting this to go on so interminably and so repetitively?

Nope

Genuinely, not to be overturned on appeal if he finds for the respondent.

I'm a TM and worried I am no longer safe at work.
CA - they are suggesting we should discriminate against people with a PC [of sex].

I admire her restraint in not completely taking the piss out of the concept of 'not safe at work' 🙄

'Safe 'harm' 'distress' need to be defined to be quantified.

Hey did I really write that last sentence? Remarkably succinct for me, it usually takes me several paragraphs to say things😃

Strappy sundress with shoulder bows - and spent much of the tribunal stroking his bare upper arm.

If he wears clothes like that to court, no reason he won’t wear or do similar in the office. I feel very sorry for any woman who might have to share a space with a male in a sundress doing that.

Well, yes. But hearing it from a barrister in frickin 2026 is still remarkable.

Not too early at all, the whatsit is well over the thingumajig.. something about yardarms.... anyway it means you go gurl,that will be a well-deserved G&ET, enjoy.
Thank you for c&p-ing.

I think HH has actually dug a hole for her client because of the ridiculous assertion's in cross.

i also think CA is a terf, she may have discovered this whilst in her employment.

anyway she is a good egg, she has not chucked the defence under the bus, for her own self preservation.

And her evidence is all the more convincing because it matters none to her given she is retired.

Trying to imagine the response of the harshest critics on Style and Beauty to that image, given that they think women over 50 or above size 16 should show as little skin as possible.

@myladydisdainisyetliving here have my bottle xxx

Thank you to everybody at TT. This afternoon was really going above and beyond and it’s much appreciated. And well done to CA for keeping her cool despite intense provocation. What a woman.

I hadn’t realised how much of the public sector is captured by GI, it’s completely baked in and they have lost the ability to recognise it.

The wise and witty comments from posters are the only thing that got me through and kept me slightly sane. Off for a frozen Tunnocks teacake now.

I wish I could buy both @myladydisdainisyetliving and @MrsOvertonsWindow a drink for their Services To Mumsnet today.

Maybe @MyrtleLion could design them a medal.

A suitable medal?

HH really tried to put maximum moral pressure on the court the 1st day when she claimed poor Tink had been traumatised by being misgendered in x-exam in a prior hearing, and that was interfering with justice being carried out properly.
Sounded quite a bit like signalling 'bow to ST's demands or I will appeal' to me - in regards to pronouns, but potentially other things too.

Sorry image under review for some reason - no it’s posted now