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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7

829 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · Yesterday 15:28

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551375-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-6

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
KeepupKardigans · Today 17:23

I am in awe of CA withstanding that legalese some what conniving onslaught and being able to recall facts, conversations and outcomes answering succinctly. Deserves a medal for endurance.

Mmmnotsure · Today 17:24

MarieDeGournay · Today 17:16

Not too early at all, the whatsit is well over the thingumajig.. something about yardarms.... anyway it means you go gurl,that will be a well-deserved G&ET, enjoy.
Thank you for c&p-ing.

It's G&ET now, is it? Very good!

Or else the sun went over the yardarm quite a while ago where you are.
(It's always over the yardarm somewhere in the world.)

Tallisker · Today 17:25

Mmmnotsure · Today 17:15

Strappy sundress with shoulder bows - and spent much of the tribunal stroking his bare upper arm.

If he wears clothes like that to court, no reason he won’t wear or do similar in the office. I feel very sorry for any woman who might have to share a space with a male in a sundress doing that.

There has been a line somewhere about Tink ‘prancing round the workplace in little-girl dresses’, maybe in his witness statement. I thought that was a bit harsh when I first read it, but then I am faced with the reality of a large man in a strappy sundress with bows on his shoulders and think his colleagues were remarkably restrained.

crumpet · Today 17:29

MyAmpleSheep · Today 12:30

Advocates who play word games with witnesses are being advocates. Advocates who play word games with the judge might find themselves in contempt.

Advocates who are probing whether there is evidence to suggest whether a judge is or is not showing bias os not contempt.

Hyenana · Today 17:29

Mmmnotsure · Today 17:15

Strappy sundress with shoulder bows - and spent much of the tribunal stroking his bare upper arm.

If he wears clothes like that to court, no reason he won’t wear or do similar in the office. I feel very sorry for any woman who might have to share a space with a male in a sundress doing that.

Was it an adult style summer dress?
There was a remark in his WS that colleagues referred to his 'little girl clothes', but that one picture posted here looked like a regular dress at least (the one with the parasol)

TheDisguiseOfReasonableness · Today 17:29

The judge has made much of not wanting to assess the merits of GI vs GC, but HH is essentially arguing that a key element of GI is suppression of dissent - everyone must believe, everyone must comply, anything else is bullying and harassment. He can’t avoid evaluating that aspect unless he accepts it as truth and submits. And if he doesn’t submit then he is himself by that logic being discriminatory so the idea he can somehow be neutral is already ruled out.

MyAmpleSheep · Today 17:33

crumpet · Today 17:29

Advocates who are probing whether there is evidence to suggest whether a judge is or is not showing bias os not contempt.

I’m just arguing for the fun of it, but is it an advocate’s job to engineer that evidence? The parallel I drew earlier is ST searching for posts to be offended about.

If control of language is genuinely a hindrance then she’ll be able to say where and when, without deliberately trying to get slapped down by the judge.

borntobequiet · Today 17:33

HH has done me a favour with her fannying around because it drove me to begin my marking (reassessments) a day early.

ProfLargofesse · Today 17:35

MyAmpleSheep · Today 17:12

Genuinely, not to be overturned on appeal if he finds for the respondent.

I suppose it could be argued he's giving them all the space and time they need to fuck their own case up. I would think that might make sense if I thought the J was reliably logical but I don't trust him.

But whether I trust him or not, so far, I think it is objectively observable that they have not presented a strong case. They are depending wholly on the idea that just saying sex sometimes matters is creating a hostile environment. This I believe the C believes but his PC of GRA does not protect him from being a time-wasting arsehole which is the case as it currently stands.

Case so far:

SEEN gets set up after agreement by CO.

CA and NB understand that those who don't subscribe to GI have not been heard and that it is legitimate for SEEN network to exist so folk can talk about the material reality of sex and the impact that has, such as pay gap, oppression, prejudice, SSSs etc.

They understand the law does not not mean by manifestation that all discussion should be banned rather that it should be grown up and respectful.

SEEN sets out its stall.

ST rabble rouses and posts insulting and derogatory comments in response.

These are taken down as is the original post.

Much discussion ensues at senior level. Some argue that SEEN should be banned, others recognise that would be discriminatory.

SEEN are told to edit out the invitation to chat as that is being seen by TRAs as debating their existence. Post goes back up, more vitriol, post removed again, SEEN cross.

Whilst discussions are ongoing about how to manage TRAs in the workplace fairly without discriminating against SEEN, codes of conduct are reviewed and updated, moderation is restructured, Yammer moves to Viva Engage which can silo networks more effectively.

SEEN corrects misrepresentation of EQa and PCs in training slide. Nother furore in response. Claims that this amounts to denial of GRA as PC.

Not good enough for ST who continues to insist SEEN removed. Starts a g/x. Gets to work from home before going off sick. OH tell him not to look for things to be offended by but he is engaging throughout with all manner of things.

Some senior staff agree with ST. He is encouraged to believe SEEN will be banned.

Don't know the outcome of initial grievance but think it not upheld so ST appeals. Sympathetic appeal lead consults Top HR boss who advises not legal to ban SEEN.

Recommendations from JH outcome letter can't be fully implemented as she has ignored top HR boss.

ST under the impression he has won. Learns that not all recommendations will be implemented, demands a review of appeal.

Appeal reviewed, nothing found wanting in decision not to implement recommendations.

ET pretty much in progress Includes AM and EW and SEEN. .

Claim against EW and AM dropped and against SEEN dropped no doubt because claims were very weak as the nasty stuff didn't come from them but from TRAs.

Robin White also no longer legal rep?

In claim agains Rs ST claims lots of moderation of TRAs but not of SEEN amounted to hostile working environment and harassment.

The only chance HH has of making a case is to take the position that GC is not WORIADS which is essentially what you are claiming if no manifestation is seen to be reasonable.

J has tried to avoid philopsophical debate and he can't go against Forstater ruling so if he is to find for ST he has to find that the manifestation was not well managed by Rs and I think that is kinda impossible. In the sea of TRA tantrums there was one post that was left up when it might not have been when under review. That's it. Other than GC is evil.

I've probably got some of that in the wrong order and missed bits out but that is the sense I make of it so far.

anyolddinosaur · Today 17:36

Thank you to everyone who has copied, pasted and kept their eyes open through another boring day.

ProfLargofesse · Today 17:37

anyolddinosaur · Today 17:36

Thank you to everyone who has copied, pasted and kept their eyes open through another boring day.

👏👏👏👏👏👏

Shedmistress · Today 17:39

Tallisker · Today 17:25

There has been a line somewhere about Tink ‘prancing round the workplace in little-girl dresses’, maybe in his witness statement. I thought that was a bit harsh when I first read it, but then I am faced with the reality of a large man in a strappy sundress with bows on his shoulders and think his colleagues were remarkably restrained.

I have mentioned before about my experience of going to work, and a pre arranged meeting that I had with a colleague, a man in his 50s, who by that point did have breasts, turning up to work, dressed as Little Bo Peep. Pink gingham dress, frilly knickers, white ankle socks, hair in bunches - the full LARP.

He wasn't apparently even working that day so should have postponed...but anyway.

The thoughts that run through your mind as he approaches, go from 'oh fuck', 'what the fuck do I do now', 'Oh my god do we have any schools in today?', 'Just keep a poker face, do not react do not react do not react', 'how can I cut this short', 'What if he wants to take the meeting into a meeting room', and a whole host of other thoughts lost into the mists of time run simultaneously through your head. Luckily he wasn't really interested in what I had to say and I suggested taking the document home and leaving it on his desk the next week, and I got the fuck out of there.

Having this happen again and again must have really fucked with their heads and the SEEN network must have been an absolute pressure cooker valve release of emotion. That someone joined just to try and report back on them, well, its what they do isn't it? Cannot even have the ability to discuss facts without supervision.

HappilyHarriet · Today 17:40

Thanks @ProfLargofessebrilliant summary.

Tallisker · Today 17:40

@ProfLargofesse I think that’s an excellent summary, thank you.

Hyenana · Today 17:42

TheDisguiseOfReasonableness · Today 17:29

The judge has made much of not wanting to assess the merits of GI vs GC, but HH is essentially arguing that a key element of GI is suppression of dissent - everyone must believe, everyone must comply, anything else is bullying and harassment. He can’t avoid evaluating that aspect unless he accepts it as truth and submits. And if he doesn’t submit then he is himself by that logic being discriminatory so the idea he can somehow be neutral is already ruled out.

I would say she is essentially arguing that NONE of that has to do with ideology or suppressing dissent, it's about his existence that is in danger of being hatecrimed against by those awful ideologues on the other side.

There is no GI, it's all about the PC of GRA which is beyond his control and nothing he can keep to himself, so it's an asymmetrical conflict of belief vs being in which being must take precedence.

MyAmpleSheep · Today 17:43

@ProfLargofesse
I suppose it could be argued he's giving them all the space and time they need to fuck their own case up.

I think he's giving them the opportunity to put their case. If it’s a weak case, spending extra time on it shows its flaws and makes it weaker.

I would think that might make sense if I thought the J was reliably logical but I don't trust him.

His internal motivation, I think, is not to be overturned. I don’t have an opinion over whether his actions are a logical outcome of that!

AmaryllisNightAndDay · Today 17:45

I wondered - who gave SEEN permission to intervene in the case? I would have thought the judge but he doesn't seem to expect/want to hear from NC.

MyAmpleSheep · Today 17:46

AmaryllisNightAndDay · Today 17:45

I wondered - who gave SEEN permission to intervene in the case? I would have thought the judge but he doesn't seem to expect/want to hear from NC.

could well have been a different EJ, before there case was listed in front of this one.

CriticalCondition · Today 17:52

Just to clarify the bit about the 'only women bleed/Alice Cooper/great song' post which HH wanted to bring into evidence from the Spreadsheet of Doom. HH was attributing it to EDW. NC objected and said it wasn't her client's post. Cue much faffing about. Eventually HH went out with ST to 'take instructions', came back in and dropped it.

The scraping had reached the bottom of the barrel.

And, (sorry about the metaphors but my ice-cream is overdue) another shot in the foot for ST who on the one hand seeks to rely on the SSoD when it appears to implicate EDW (and how/why did that happen anyway) and on the other in his WS says it's incomplete and inaccurate.

CriticalCondition · Today 17:56

Thanks to all the brave C&P people for their sterling efforts.

But am I the only one who thinks that Tunnock's medal is a bit, umm, nippley? Blush

Ormally · Today 17:58

Did I miss the part that there were 2 earlier reminders about? (Cornetto break time)?

ProfDrLapwing · Today 18:02

CriticalCondition · Today 17:56

Thanks to all the brave C&P people for their sterling efforts.

But am I the only one who thinks that Tunnock's medal is a bit, umm, nippley? Blush

On reflection I think that’s why the image was being checked out 😬

AmaryllisNightAndDay · Today 18:03

Thanks again to TT and the cut and pasters.

I'm rather hoping that NC will get to have some fun with "My Body Is Me" tomorrow (well, if HH ever finishes) Though in reality I know she has to focus on what matters to her case in the ever shrinking time available.

ickky · Today 18:04

They have fashioned them into nipple tassels. The blue is the dark chocolate.

Happy Rooster Teeth GIF by Achievement Hunter
Kirschcherries · Today 18:08

I always come back to the HR scenario of a biological female employee with a GRC saying they are male. They raise numerous grievances for misgendering etc. exactly like ST any suggestion they are a bio female is transphobic, denying their existence etc.

Then one day they rock up with a Mat B1 - as HR do I say I respect you are a man and sadly this means you are not entitled to Statutory Maternity Leave & Pay, you are not entitled to Occupational Mat Pay and you are not entitled to the pc of pregnancy and maternity etc. as all the legislation states woman or mother. If I treat you as a woman you will raise a grievance against me.

Obviously I go sex matters, you are a bio woman who is pregnant, so I am going to treat you as such.