"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 6

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

Who here if you have to get changed at work thinks I know I'll wear my old knackered knickers with holes all over them to work and leave the new pack bought for a few quid at Sainburys for the weekend!

My inner pedant can't resist suggesting that boxers are by definition loose; could it be that the 'tight boxers' were in fact trunks?
More revealing, and more likely to have holes, different fabric.

TT

NF: Re your conduct in the CR. I will take in order. Starting with Ms Lockie's statement [refs to that WS]
NF: She describes encounter Jan24. Says c5.45 went into CR, it was packed. 30+ women?
RH: Yes

NF: She says she got changed in loo cubicle to avoid you, came out & you were still there. Sound right to you?
RH: Cd be. I don't recall the incident.

NF: She says you saw her go in and came out, and gave her a long look.
RH: Don't remember seeing her in CR at all. I don't know DSU staff well enough to know names

Or three sizes too small!

RH: I expect some of [my boxers] are slightly damaged yes

Yuk

TT

NF: Sure, but she says you had seen her go into cubicle to avoid you, and you gave her a challenging look when she came out.
RH: I didn't know who she was, why would I pay her any attention. Lots of staff use the cubicles.

I wonder what he would've said if asked why he faces the corner?

I know. There is no way I would wear old period pants, if I thought there was the slightest chance anyone else would see them.

I bought new a new bra and knickers for a recent hospital appointment for example and I wasn't even getting undressed.

TT

NF: [ref p113] NF: Ms Shields' WS. [para12 p116] She remembers you having a shower and drying off in CR in full view
RH: Never occurred
NF: What she says is false?
RH: Yes

NF: J I need to look up a reference
J: Perhaps p109? [they discuss what page is wanted]

Eh? He was naked?

I'll demur: I would not choose my underwear based on what I was doing, unless what I was doing was sex. (At the same time, I throw out my underpants once they have holes!)

Didn't it occur to him that he might be knocked down by a bus on his way to work? Isn't that a major incentive not to wear shabby underwear?

That's just his massive male hands

I'd love him to be asked whether it would occur to him to dry off like the 'other women'. And if not, why wouldn't it?

Because there's no right answer.

If he's facing his locker it'd be harder to see if he's holding a 'phone, but it'd be harder to change into socks, trousers standing and if he sat he'd be facing the room.

I'm not watching so I've not seen the CR plan. I'm assuming lockers on the wall with benches at the foot of the lockers. I suppose there could be benches in the middle of the room with the lockers facing.

TT

NF: This is Ms Sinclair's WS - do you know her?
RH: Vaguely - worked with her when student.
NF: [ref] please read
RH: [does so]

NF: She says para14 she often saw you in holey boxer shorts and top, usually facing into the room. You'd have that as a stage of changing?
RH: Yes
NF: And facing into the room
RH: Not my standard practice.
NF: You disagree with 'often'?
RH: Yes

So why, if he is a 'laydee', is he so careful to face his locker/the corner/use a cubicle??

TT

NF: [ref p70] NF: [another WS - missed name]
NF: para7 p71 she says, she describes what she saw. What she says you were wearing corresponds with our description of your underwear?
RH: No - one pair maybe - mainly my underwear is not riddled with holes

not what he said earlier

Too many women noticed holes, for them not to be riddled with them.

Or he only has one pair

'Lots of staff use the cubicles'

Do they though? Or just when RH is there?

I think (and may be wrong) The layout is like a backwards E with offshoots and I think theres lockers along every bit of wall space they could fit them, with some benches and the scrubs bit by the entrance door. (Plus the loo and cubicle shower etc God knows where.)

It sounds like he intends to go down the "they're all liars" route.

TT

NF: She says walking up and down. She described route, to and fro to scrubs. You say, false allegation?
RH: If allegation is that I was walking just in undergarments then yes. Wd have been fully dressed if I needed to pick up change of scrubs

NF: So you say false allegation, that you were in state of undress?
RH: Yes

NF: She describes you hanging around in CR for no obvious reason, do you accept that?
RH: no
NF: Says you started at ppl in changing room particularly her.
RH: False allegation.

Indeed. You might if you're at a swimming bath, and getting absolutely naked, but not so much if you were just getting into scrubs.

edited to add especially if there were few cubicles, and you'd have to wait. You'd just think stuff this and get on with it