"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 6

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, KD (day 1 of evidence) and BH (day 2).
Thread 2, 23-Oct to 28-Oct; BH (day 2), CH, JP, MG (day 3&4), TH, SS, ST, LL (day 4), JS, AT (day 5)
Thread 3, 28-Oct to 29-Oct; AT (day 5&6), TA (day 6&7)
Thread 4, 29-Oct to 31-Oct; TA, AM (day 7) JB (day 8)
Thread 5, 31-Oct to 04-Nov; JB (day 8), SW, CG, JR (day 9)

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge Seamus Sweeney
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, NHS ward manager
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, claimant
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
CH – Carly Hoy, claimant
JP – Jane Peveller, claimant
MG – Mary Anne (aka Annice) Grundy, claimant
TH – Tracy Hooper, claimant
SS – Siobhan Sinclair, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust
ST – Sharron Trevarrow, witness for the claimants, retired from Trust, former housekeeper and wellbeing officer
LL – Lisa Lockey, claimant
JP – Professor Jo Phoenix, expert witness
JS – Jane Shields, witness for the claimants
AT - Andrew Thacker, NHS trust Head of HR
TA – Tracy Atkinson, NHS trust HR.
AM – Andrew Moore, NHS Head of Workforce Experience
JB – Jillian Bailey, NHS Workforce Experience Manager
AT – Anna Telfer, NHS Deputy Director of Nursing
SW – Sandra Watson, Matron for General and Elective Surgery
JR – Jodie Robinson, manager of Rose

Thank you. Good to know.

TT

NF: [ref Vol2 pt2 pg2083]
NF: This is plan of the floor we have been discussing. I was asking b4 about you going along to the ward [talks through plan]
RH: Yes I remember

NF: You said you might be looking for a person or a trolley. Surely shortest route would be through the doors?
RH: Yes
NF: And you'd look into bays for trolleys?
RH: Yes glance in as walking by

NF: para10 of your WS.
NF: You discuss expression of your gender identity. You have had female partner throughout period we're discussing?
RH: Yes

F: You say 4 things re your GI. Your physical appearance?
RH: Believe so.
NF: I mean this in your WS?
RH: Don't mean my appearance exactly, more that have always been open as TW

Thanks for all the lunchtime smug scale opinions. It's great to have some views of those watching.

I am afraid I have no sympathy for comments on Rose's appearance or demeanor.

I believe the nurses that Rose was sexually harassing them from I.e. asking them repeatedly when undressing (not just from his male presence.)

There's been multiple female nurse victims testifying these behaviours under oath.

TT

NF: So mainly, your name choice and pronouns?
RH: Yes have always been open
NF: You recall Jane Shields?
RH: Yes
NF: Working with her 2022?
RH: Yes believe so
NF: She left Dec 2022
RH OK

NF: Do you remember working with her 2020 too?
RH:Yes
NF: Do you remember discussing your transition with her?
RH: No

NF: We have discussed shift patterns here before. Yours end 6pm? Did hers too?
RH: Anaeshesia can be slightly different shift
NF: JS does not recall you in changing room [missed]
NF: JS recalls a convo with you, [3 other ppl 2 named]
RH: Don't recall. Students don't work night shifts.

TT

NF: [ref p1016]
NF: Your i/v as part of i/x Nov 2024
NF: Have you read recently?
RH: Yes
NF: Stand by these replies?
RH: AFAICrecall

NF: Including this one - you say [it is not read out] Correct?
RH: Yes
NF: As part of process you listed theatre colleagues you wanted as witnesses. Listed here. Includes [reads 3 names]

@OneCraftyMentor to me it's sexual harrassment and breach of female privacy/ dignity just by a bloke being in the female changing room without the womens' consent. I would not be able to use the changing room if a male was there, whatever his intent/ reason, as like most women I don't undress in front of men except my partner as a general rule!
Everything else (his underpants, whether he was trying to coerce them to get their kit off) is just an extra form of abuse.

I can't get over the fact that a woman has married him.

NF: Stand by these replies?

I'd be pretty nervous if a lawyer asked me this during a tribunal.

TT

NF {ref p1047]
NF: This is note of i/v with 1 of them. You see Ms Newton asks, 'has RH ever told you'? - you see that? over the page 1048
RH: There are 2 starting like that
NF: You are right - this one

NF: You see Ms Leeson says [not said out loud] - have you discussed this with Ms L?
RH: Yes

NF: [ref p1052] NF: This is s form part of i/v process - go over to p1053, Q11 and the reply.
NF: Ms Weddell is saying 'yes', and gives details. Is she right in that answer? RH: Yes we had had discussion about my and wife intent to have family later in our lives

NF back to p1041. This is replies by Ms Norris to same Q. She again says yes. You had discussed with her too?
RH: yes, but, later in life, not at present.

From TT - lots of reading the witness statement and reading answers but nothing being said aloud.

So they are hiding the evidence as observers haven’t access to the witness statements.

Seems NF has been well hamstrung here.

Not quite open justice or equal treatment to other witnesses.

I think this must have been the discussion that took so long this morning that certain things, already mentioned by just about every witness wouldn't be spoken out loud for Rose's questions

TT

NF: [ref para15 of WS]
NF: You refer to picking up scrubs in the changing room. Read para16 too
NF: You say you somtimes walk round CR fully dressed?
RH: Yes when I come in and then go to locker.

Thanks for this. I think people (particularly on TwiX) often portray trans identifying men as stereotypes, ignoring the fact that they have different personalities, albeit sometimes overlaid with a large dose of presenting as one might expect. As a parent of one, I do not recognise in him all the characteristics that they get labelled with, though I have objected to some of his behaviour (coercive pronoun demands) directly to him. So it is good to get an impression of how Rose differs from, as well as how he is similar to, Dr Upton.

But why would anyone want to put that constraint in place? What would be the point? Does anyone know? Unless there is an identifiable reason, it feels unlikely?

!!!

TT

NF: So you pick up scrubs, go to locker, fully clothed, and then you might discover wrong size?
RH: Or ink stains or something
NF: And you say you always change back into full clothing before going to change scrubs?
RH: Yes always fully clothed.
NF: Never partially clothed?
RH: No

NF: You speak to colleagues, you say you became more relaxed and conversational over time
RH: Yes
NF: Might talk a lot to someone you knew well?
RH: Yes

NF: You say close to Ms Weddell and you often wait for her?
RH: If shifts align yes
NF: So you might be in the CR quite a while?
RH: If much hanging around for her I would tend to wait outside. She normally gets finished first though

It's really irrelevant whether it's now or later. Surely , the implication is that this is a heterosexual man who is sexually active.

And yes, I know it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference, in terms of exclusion. But given many people think a transwoman is a fey gay man, it matters.

TT

NF: You own boxer shorts with holes in?
RH: I expect some of them are slightly damaged yes
NF: You say you always face your locker when changing?
RH: Yes almost always. Sometimes I use cubicle. Bascially I face my locker or the corner.

From TT
NF: You say close to Ms Weddell and you often wait for her? RH: If shifts align yes NF: So you might be in the CR quite a while? RH: If much hanging around for her I would tend to wait outside. She normally gets finished first though

So he was hanging about in the changing room, why not wait outside?

Reading from TTs posted here: it looks like they're deliberately not reading out questions relating to RH's witness statement on him trying for a baby? But his answers give away what the question was! What a joke.

(Edited for typo)

RH: I expect some of them are slightly damaged yes

Blghhhhhhhh

He has been chugging water like he is in the Sahara.

TT

NF: Other than when walking around?
RH: Yes
NF: Or when talking to collegaues?
RH: No wouldn't be looking at them really
NF: This is not realistic is it?
RH: Yes it would be

NF: You know the Cs produced witness statements for the i/x. You saw these? RH: Yes
NF: Do you recall when?
RH: Not exactly no

NF: Your i/v was Nov 2024, had you seen any of the Cs statements then?
RH: I don't think so

Here we go...

That's possibly because the water glasses have shrunk. At least they look so much smaller than when the nurses were using them.