"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 3

[AuthorisedCat]

Link to Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, evidence from KD (Day 1) and BH (Day 2).

Link to Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5432103-darlington-nurses-vs-county-durham-and-darlington-nhs-trust-tribunal-thread-2

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The NHS trust’s HR department dismissed the nurses’ concerns, stating they should “broaden their mindset” and “be educated”. More details can be found at Sex Matters and at Christian Concern who are supporting the nurses via the CLC.
The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online, requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets
The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.
Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, second claimant to give evidence
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
Other abbreviations:
WFTCHTJ – Waiting For The Conference Host To Join
ET - Employment Tribunal
DMH/H – Hospital, Darlington Memorial Hospital
CR/CF - changing room or facilities
IX - internal investigation
XX – cross examination

From TT

[NF takes to different comms where email says "noise in the system"]
NF - That was just noise in the system?
TA - That is a phrase used yes. Noise in system was just describing that I didnt have a formal case at that point.
NF - We saw at 271 Miss Bailey came into the chain and saying best person to speak to. Then a meeting between Bailey and theatre managers. Thats what this email is from Miss Bailey. Have you read it?
TA - Yes can I remind myself though?
NF - yes

"we didn't know what the concern was" (why not?)
"it was not a complaint, more like just noise in the system"

She simply did not want to take the nurses' concerns seriously. Holey boxer shorts in the F CR are just noise.

And TA is reframing 'educating' as "our team being made aware of concerns" to save her butt

Her "defence" was to remain as ignorant as possible for as long as possible. This is astonishing. But it does, again, undercut the Trust's argument that the nurses didn't properly engage with the process and jumped to legal action too quickly.

Non-twits/Xers can follow on Tribunal Tweets (@tribunaltweets) | nitter.poast.org

Totally. They kept trying to engage but were met with this HR brick wall. So it's no wonder that they went to the press. The only surprise is that they waited as long as they did, which shows they tried to engage in good faith.

That's why we are in the position of Jo Phoenix having to give expert evidence of the importance of SSS. It's madness.

From TT

NF - This is with theatre staff. Tracey Wainwright theatre manager. [Reads] "Ive had a think since we spoke and theres a recommendation to go back and explain that Rose has a right to ID as her gender" - youu saw that advice?
TA - yes
NF - Did you see Miss Watson response to that?
TA - Not sure I did actually. Dont recall
NF - Miss Watson being theatre matron?
TA - yes
NF - Shes the one who says she will communicate to -she quotes from the email - "complaining staff"?

Is she saying that that she didn't know that Rose was using the women's changing rooms, or that she didn't know that it was a problem?

We've moved on to the "I don't recall" part of TA's evidence.

She has never seen the changing room?

Asking women when they're going to get changed isn't a 'right'.

Going where you are not legally allowed to go is also not a right.

'Rose' has exactly the same rights as every other man. Not one of those rights was infringed by his own actions, or the nurses' responses.

The Judge said he had been asking his questions as the evidence was given. Judge had a short admin sessions with legal teams and then an early lunch.

Just bookmarking to read later.

From TT

TA - yes
NF - [reads email again about "go back and explain Rose has a right to ID as F"] Mr Thacker said you notified him in 2023 and youu said you raised them locally.
TA - That was later on was it not?
NF - yes later sorry I wasnt clear
TA - I think it was when we got letter of concern
NF - letter with signatures?
TA - yes. I hadn't received anything more formal following meeting with JB.
NF - You told them that essentially they had to lump it?
TA - No I said I had nothing more formal at that point. About balance.

"we were balancing the situation by telling the F nurses to lump it" paraphrased

ed to add ed :)

Again I am infused with feelings of sadness, like I was with the SP tribunal, that no one gives a shit about these women.

ETA - at least these women weren't completely alone, unlike SP

When I was fifteen our school required us to undertake a fortnight’s work experience, something we had to arrange ourselves. For a lot of pupils the obvious place to go was wherever your parent(s) worked.
My parent worked at the local hospital so that’s where I chose to do work experience. I had to use the changing room at the start and end of each ‘shift’.
If I’d been in there with a trans-identifying male I wouldn’t have returned. How would you suggest that person’s rights be balanced against a female child’s rights not to get undressed in front of an adult male?

NF is being delightfully direct here, cutting through the waffle
You told them that essentially they had to lump it?
So balance was that women have to share?

From TT

NF - what was the balance?
TA - a TG colleague and conflict that brings in with national guidance
NF - So balance was that women have to share?
TA - I hadn't had a complaint via Ulyses or something - which is where my team would normally get involved.
NF - Did u ever see Miss Bailey's advice?
TA - which?
NF - at bundle 2
TA - I can't recall. Jillian is very good at keeping us up to date but cant say I saw the advice.
NF - Is that a good time to stop?
J - I was just about to ask

[Tribunal adjourned for 10 mins]

FFS seems like there is a magical formal complaint process that has to happen before anything was progressed but no one told the nurses this.

This witness is so annoying - smug, corporate bamboozling.

NF's gentle assassin approach is pretty effective isn't it. He makes his point, allows the witness to answer, leaves the paucity of the response hanging, then smoothly moves on to to his next point.

So, according to TA, she insulated HR from the complaints by the nurses by setting Jillian Bailey the task of setting them right from an EDI perspective and now, in the hearing, TA is saying that she can't really answer for what Bailey did because Bailey is an EDI person and not an HR person, and Bailey is not within TA's area.

TT's tweets from this afternoon

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1983529584319426898.html

Thank you all for the commentary, cut n pastes and general keeping-me-up-to date-ness, wims, grateful as always.