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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

1000 replies

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:15

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

OP posts:
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33
GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 09/05/2025 14:25

lcakethereforeIam · 09/05/2025 11:07

I did a bit of googling and found this

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/39006.htm#:~:text=73.It%20is%20not%20unlawful,in%20almost%20all%20circumstances%20unnecessary.

73.It is not unlawful under the GRA to ask a person to produce a GRC,69 but it is in almost all circumstances unnecessary. There are very few situations in which it would be appropriate to ask for proof of legal gender (see Chapter Six).

Although ACAS has this

https://www.acas.org.uk/gender-reassignment-discrimination#:~:text=A%20Gender%20Recognition%20Certificate%20is,or%20is%20applying%20for%20one.

An employer should not ask to see an employee's Gender Recognition Certificate. An employer must not disclose that someone has a Gender Recognition Certificate or is applying for one.

Although it doesn't cite any references. I suspect it would be treated like any other potentially private or information, eg. employers asking female employees or interviewees about pregnancy or plans to become pregnant.

it seems asking for a GRC where relevant was ever illegal. Even the ACAS guidance doesn't say that. Following the SC clarification there's no need to ask because GRCs don't, and never did, magically change a person's sex.

Eta just noticed the footnote hyperlink I'd accidentally copied. Jane Fae🙄 suggested it might be re. the EA. Although if it says why I've not found it.

Edited

It’s worth looking at the Goodwin judgement to see where this all comes from. Again, IANAL, but there was a couple of things highlighted about Goodwin by Peter Daly following the FWS case, in response to the suggestion that the trans lobby take their case against the FWS judgement to the ECHR to re litigate & seek to over turn it.

This post includes a section from the Goodwin Judgement which explains why the privacy clause in the GRA over disclosing whether someone has a GRC or not was included.

https://x.com/peter_daly/status/1916519040861736994?s=46

The attached screen shot highlights the part I think is relevant:

Goodwin highlights concerns over a new employer linking details of his previous identity to his NI number (revealing his status change) and then says he began experiencing difficulties at work, colleagues stopped talking to him (around the time his employer made the link via NI number to his previous ID) and he was told people were talking about him behind his back. The link to ‘outing’ him to colleagues is insinuated as being from the employer sharing private/personal information that Goodwin feels changed the atmosphere for him at work. The fact that his sex would have been obvious to anyone he worked with, when they met him in person, or spoke to him via the phone doesn’t factor.

Here’s a post including a short clip of Goodwin on a TV program:

https://x.com/mforstater/status/1688461766848643072?s=46

The privacy element of the GRA - and the significant punitive measures attached to that - make it seem that employers were being reckless with personal information about transsexual employees & that resulted in staff/co-workers treating transsexual employees badly. Where I think this element of the GRA goes too far is the assumption that, without the employer carelessly or maliciously revealing someone’s claimed ‘gender identity’ to other employees, their privacy & identity would be robustly protected. It fails completely to factor in the fact it’s obvious to almost all people when someone is falsifying their sex when you meet them in person. And we’ve all seen too clearly over the past 10/15 years how reasonable comments/opinions are taking in very different ways to what is intended, by people who lack a solid grounding in their own reality & who intentionally overreact, in bad faith, to a reasonable person’s failure to collude in the lie. SP is a prime example of this. In my mind, it sets up the unrealistic expectation that when someone claims to identify as something they are not - a man claiming to be a woman, or vice versa - that is a private matter & everyone has to go along with the idea that what someone claims to be is what they are. And to do/say otherwise is a great injury to that person.

It’s part of the reason we’re dealing with unreasonable expectations & demands from what is a small group of people, who expect their demands (no matter how unreasonable) to be met.

Peter Daly’s long thread is interesting to read & it’s useful to follow his arguments on why he thinks the ECHR wouldn’t result in the outcome the trans lobbyists would hope for, and in fact, it might go as far as embedding the FWS further.

This is a slight tangent but it’s interesting to consider where that aspect of all of this comes from. And to what extent there was any consideration as to how this would work in practice.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25
Merrymouse · 09/05/2025 15:21

lcakethereforeIam · 09/05/2025 11:07

I did a bit of googling and found this

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/39006.htm#:~:text=73.It%20is%20not%20unlawful,in%20almost%20all%20circumstances%20unnecessary.

73.It is not unlawful under the GRA to ask a person to produce a GRC,69 but it is in almost all circumstances unnecessary. There are very few situations in which it would be appropriate to ask for proof of legal gender (see Chapter Six).

Although ACAS has this

https://www.acas.org.uk/gender-reassignment-discrimination#:~:text=A%20Gender%20Recognition%20Certificate%20is,or%20is%20applying%20for%20one.

An employer should not ask to see an employee's Gender Recognition Certificate. An employer must not disclose that someone has a Gender Recognition Certificate or is applying for one.

Although it doesn't cite any references. I suspect it would be treated like any other potentially private or information, eg. employers asking female employees or interviewees about pregnancy or plans to become pregnant.

it seems asking for a GRC where relevant was ever illegal. Even the ACAS guidance doesn't say that. Following the SC clarification there's no need to ask because GRCs don't, and never did, magically change a person's sex.

Eta just noticed the footnote hyperlink I'd accidentally copied. Jane Fae🙄 suggested it might be re. the EA. Although if it says why I've not found it.

Edited

You do have to tell employer about pregnancy 15 weeks before the baby is due.

This seems similar, in that in both cases the employer needs information to comply with their statutory obligations.

However Goodwin doesn’t seem to consider wider impact.

Merrymouse · 09/05/2025 15:24

Also similar - in complying with H&S obligations, the employer may indirectly reveal that an employee is pregnant.

KnottyAuty · 09/05/2025 16:21

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 09/05/2025 14:25

It’s worth looking at the Goodwin judgement to see where this all comes from. Again, IANAL, but there was a couple of things highlighted about Goodwin by Peter Daly following the FWS case, in response to the suggestion that the trans lobby take their case against the FWS judgement to the ECHR to re litigate & seek to over turn it.

This post includes a section from the Goodwin Judgement which explains why the privacy clause in the GRA over disclosing whether someone has a GRC or not was included.

https://x.com/peter_daly/status/1916519040861736994?s=46

The attached screen shot highlights the part I think is relevant:

Goodwin highlights concerns over a new employer linking details of his previous identity to his NI number (revealing his status change) and then says he began experiencing difficulties at work, colleagues stopped talking to him (around the time his employer made the link via NI number to his previous ID) and he was told people were talking about him behind his back. The link to ‘outing’ him to colleagues is insinuated as being from the employer sharing private/personal information that Goodwin feels changed the atmosphere for him at work. The fact that his sex would have been obvious to anyone he worked with, when they met him in person, or spoke to him via the phone doesn’t factor.

Here’s a post including a short clip of Goodwin on a TV program:

https://x.com/mforstater/status/1688461766848643072?s=46

The privacy element of the GRA - and the significant punitive measures attached to that - make it seem that employers were being reckless with personal information about transsexual employees & that resulted in staff/co-workers treating transsexual employees badly. Where I think this element of the GRA goes too far is the assumption that, without the employer carelessly or maliciously revealing someone’s claimed ‘gender identity’ to other employees, their privacy & identity would be robustly protected. It fails completely to factor in the fact it’s obvious to almost all people when someone is falsifying their sex when you meet them in person. And we’ve all seen too clearly over the past 10/15 years how reasonable comments/opinions are taking in very different ways to what is intended, by people who lack a solid grounding in their own reality & who intentionally overreact, in bad faith, to a reasonable person’s failure to collude in the lie. SP is a prime example of this. In my mind, it sets up the unrealistic expectation that when someone claims to identify as something they are not - a man claiming to be a woman, or vice versa - that is a private matter & everyone has to go along with the idea that what someone claims to be is what they are. And to do/say otherwise is a great injury to that person.

It’s part of the reason we’re dealing with unreasonable expectations & demands from what is a small group of people, who expect their demands (no matter how unreasonable) to be met.

Peter Daly’s long thread is interesting to read & it’s useful to follow his arguments on why he thinks the ECHR wouldn’t result in the outcome the trans lobbyists would hope for, and in fact, it might go as far as embedding the FWS further.

This is a slight tangent but it’s interesting to consider where that aspect of all of this comes from. And to what extent there was any consideration as to how this would work in practice.

Hhmm if autism features often in this group then was it really that they became aware of the paperwork? Or did Goodwin have terrible social skills so no one wanted to hang out with them? If someone doesn’t “play nicely” at any age they get shunned - completely separate to being trans

Merrymouse · 09/05/2025 16:35

Christine Goodwin had a wife and 4 children before transitioning.

I wonder if the judgement assumed that they were also under an obligation to keep their lives a secret? That they were happy to do so?

Peregrina · 09/05/2025 16:44

Christine Goodwin had a wife and 4 children before transitioning.

I would have said that this beggars belief, but with the nonsense we've seen over the last few years it doesn't. So you work with a man for a couple of years, and then suddenly the next week he comes in, in a dress, and announces that he's not Jack but Jill, and you are supposed to forget that Jack ever existed?

And then Jack now Jill wonders why everyone is talking about him behind his back.

RedToothBrush · 09/05/2025 16:45

lcakethereforeIam · 09/05/2025 11:07

I did a bit of googling and found this

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/39006.htm#:~:text=73.It%20is%20not%20unlawful,in%20almost%20all%20circumstances%20unnecessary.

73.It is not unlawful under the GRA to ask a person to produce a GRC,69 but it is in almost all circumstances unnecessary. There are very few situations in which it would be appropriate to ask for proof of legal gender (see Chapter Six).

Although ACAS has this

https://www.acas.org.uk/gender-reassignment-discrimination#:~:text=A%20Gender%20Recognition%20Certificate%20is,or%20is%20applying%20for%20one.

An employer should not ask to see an employee's Gender Recognition Certificate. An employer must not disclose that someone has a Gender Recognition Certificate or is applying for one.

Although it doesn't cite any references. I suspect it would be treated like any other potentially private or information, eg. employers asking female employees or interviewees about pregnancy or plans to become pregnant.

it seems asking for a GRC where relevant was ever illegal. Even the ACAS guidance doesn't say that. Following the SC clarification there's no need to ask because GRCs don't, and never did, magically change a person's sex.

Eta just noticed the footnote hyperlink I'd accidentally copied. Jane Fae🙄 suggested it might be re. the EA. Although if it says why I've not found it.

Edited
  1. the GRC is now redundant
  2. this does not stop an employer asking for a declaration of sex as part of an employment contract if you have a legitimate aim. There are exceptions in the human rights act with regard to privacy for certain areas - arguably this just got a lot bigger because we just established that in law women and homosexuals are at risk of inequality if sex is not recognised and that employers have certain liabilities and responsibilities that stem from that.
Peregrina · 09/05/2025 16:56

this does not stop an employer asking for a declaration of sex as part of an employment contract if you have a legitimate aim.

Beth Upton's employers have a legitimate aim to know the sex of their employees but he was happy to swear on oath that he was a biological woman. This is without the once potentially complicating fact of a GRC which he didn't have.

RedToothBrush · 09/05/2025 17:00

Peregrina · 09/05/2025 16:56

this does not stop an employer asking for a declaration of sex as part of an employment contract if you have a legitimate aim.

Beth Upton's employers have a legitimate aim to know the sex of their employees but he was happy to swear on oath that he was a biological woman. This is without the once potentially complicating fact of a GRC which he didn't have.

As I just said on another thread:

The thing here is often that staff members are fully aware that someone is trans. So due diligence doesn't give you a pass just by having the paperwork.

You cant have a situation where you are claiming all your staff are women but your staff all know that Jane was John. Cos legally you are taking the piss.

And this is the scenario at Fife.

Merrymouse · 09/05/2025 17:05

Politically, the government have made it clear that they want U.K. judges to interpret article 8 in a more balanced way, re: claiming of refugee status and I suspect this reflects the stance of governments across Europe.

Obviously the courts, not the government interpret the law, but I wonder if a 2025 judge would be more inclined to think about the wider context of human nights when considering article 8?

lcakethereforeIam · 09/05/2025 17:08

Merrymouse · 09/05/2025 15:21

You do have to tell employer about pregnancy 15 weeks before the baby is due.

This seems similar, in that in both cases the employer needs information to comply with their statutory obligations.

However Goodwin doesn’t seem to consider wider impact.

For brevity I didn't want to go down a pregnancy rabbithole, but you're quite right. I had to disclose to HR that I was pregnant before I wanted to, if they'd spread that information around I'd have been pissed.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 09/05/2025 17:12

@lcakethereforeIam

This megawhinge from Jane Fae explains why asking for a GRC might be discriminatory:

https://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19486.pdf

Not wrong, exactly, but incredibly solipsistic.

https://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19486.pdf

WandaSiri · 09/05/2025 17:36

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/05/2025 14:13

I don't think you mean to imply that there is no coercion in social circles or with family members. There often is.

No, I don't mean to imply that - there is emotional blackmail and all that. I'm saying if it was genuinely voluntary, many people would go along with it to some extent.

WandaSiri · 09/05/2025 17:52

In fact, I'm feeling a lot less charitable suddenly - end of working week crossness - and I find I agree with a pp about not supporting delusions with pronouns - ultimately it is not in anyone's interests. Apologies for the relapse into #beingkind.

Not sure I'd go for neo-pronouns either - who's got time for that nonsense?

thenoisiesttermagant · 09/05/2025 17:52

The thing I am most sick of today is all the drivel that suggests no-one can tell sex of an individual. Of course we can! Such rubbish.

It's like legislation being written around the concept of gravity working backwards. Ludicrous always and dangerous to have to pretend to believe this in many situations e.g. if you're an aircraft engineer.

TheOtherRaven · 09/05/2025 19:57

Not to mention there's never any difficulty in telling sex when it's a case of ranting at a woman.

None whatsoever. Nor any bothering to find out her pronouns first.

KnottyAuty · 09/05/2025 21:05

Oh dear. The NHS strikes again…. More gardening anyone? Another nurse drubbed out of her job.

They asked me if I thought I had betrayed patient trust by criticising gender ideology and promoting gender critical and classical liberal ideas. They also questioned my nursing practice because I didn’t believe that a person could be ‘born in the wrong body’.

www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/a2a7ddd04dc3d059

Bannedontherun · 09/05/2025 21:12

The thought police strike again…….

TheOtherRaven · 09/05/2025 21:36

KnottyAuty · 09/05/2025 21:05

Oh dear. The NHS strikes again…. More gardening anyone? Another nurse drubbed out of her job.

They asked me if I thought I had betrayed patient trust by criticising gender ideology and promoting gender critical and classical liberal ideas. They also questioned my nursing practice because I didn’t believe that a person could be ‘born in the wrong body’.

www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/a2a7ddd04dc3d059

And yet they themselves are busily betraying patient trust by criticising those who believe in sex based reality and who promote gender ideology as the one true faith, treating non believers as heretics, and are apparently without self awareness of the obvious irony in what they say. They should be questioning nursing practice of those who believe that people can change sex, or who demonstrate prejudice in the work place towards anyone on any grounds regardless of whether or not that person has beliefs they don't share. They are the ones demonstrating it in the work place, where she merely had views at home on her own time.

The other obvious discussion to have is whether social media conversations affect practice in the workplace, and professionality, but she can have them for bias and prejudice as much as they think they can have her since their complaint is that she's a heretic.

Barking. Utterly barking.

Thanks for sharing this. It'll be another entertaining court case.

prh47bridge · 09/05/2025 21:58

KnottyAuty · 09/05/2025 21:05

Oh dear. The NHS strikes again…. More gardening anyone? Another nurse drubbed out of her job.

They asked me if I thought I had betrayed patient trust by criticising gender ideology and promoting gender critical and classical liberal ideas. They also questioned my nursing practice because I didn’t believe that a person could be ‘born in the wrong body’.

www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/a2a7ddd04dc3d059

We only have her side of the story at this stage, of course. However, if what she says is accurate, they have clearly discriminated against her for expressing GC views on social media. Given that this appears to have happened in 2024, well after the Forstater judgement, this is appalling and again shows that NHS management haven't yet understood.

KnottyAuty · 09/05/2025 22:13

prh47bridge · 09/05/2025 21:58

We only have her side of the story at this stage, of course. However, if what she says is accurate, they have clearly discriminated against her for expressing GC views on social media. Given that this appears to have happened in 2024, well after the Forstater judgement, this is appalling and again shows that NHS management haven't yet understood.

The gap between what a lot of managers in the NHS believe and what the general public believe seems to be growing by the day. The "culture wars" is a terrible label because it implies that there are problems on both sides.

But at the detail level - when it becomes clear that at least one NHS Trust has said that using the word "woman" and the word "uterus" in the same sentence is a disciplinary offence OR in NHS Fife that saying "you are a man" to a male in the female changing room OR South London NHS suspending someone for saying "hell" when referring to a pride flag with a McDonalds logo on their personal social media - these things don't stack up...

While harrassment can be felt by someone even if offence is not intended, it's just not reasonable to be offended by these examples in the "real world" is it?!

Yet public money is being wasted and experienced professionals run out of their jobs. And those staff are the ones accused of bigotry and intolerance. Weird weird times!

Enough4me · 09/05/2025 23:25

I don't understand how speaking the truth can lead to someone being called a Bigot/Nazi etc.
It's a complete over reaction like a toddler screaming because their favourite Tshirt is in the wash, except I have more sympathy for a toddler as they don't know any better.

prh47bridge · 10/05/2025 09:39

Teenage footballer banned for transgender comment wants apology from Football Association - BBC Sport

This case should never have happened. I think the FA should apologise, although I doubt they will.

SternJoyousBee · 10/05/2025 09:51

thenoisiesttermagant · 09/05/2025 17:52

The thing I am most sick of today is all the drivel that suggests no-one can tell sex of an individual. Of course we can! Such rubbish.

It's like legislation being written around the concept of gravity working backwards. Ludicrous always and dangerous to have to pretend to believe this in many situations e.g. if you're an aircraft engineer.

The idea that no one knew Christine Goodwin was a man until his employer linked him to his NI number is utterly ludicrous and laughable.

In almost every comment that I want to make on this topic I keep coming back to one word that was used in the SC ruling….incoherent.

If any organisation had been interested in any if the PCs other than gender reassignment and taken even a second to consider how their policies impacted on women and girls then we would have been in a very different position.

Would Jane Russel have had to set out the grounds of her defence already? I mean would she have to have set out the legal framework that she was relying on? Because so far she seems to just be saying poor delicate Upton is clearly a woman and how dare you say he isn’t and Sandie is just a bigoted old Trump supporter.

Can she now swivel and claim that NHS Fife were just following orders even if those orders were not lawful (and if anyone had actually taken the time to undertake a good faith impact assessment they would have seen that the Emperor was clearly naked)?

Upton didn’t have a GRC so fill in the blanks of the rest of the sentence that is just too ridiculous for me to type out.
The courts had already ruled on the matter of lack of a GRC. So it seems that JR has just been relying on everyone going along with TWAW rather than a legal argument?

Conxis · 10/05/2025 09:57

@SternJoyousBee I’ve always been baffled as to what NHS Fife’s defence actually is.
But IANAL

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