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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

1000 replies

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:15

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

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33
theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 09/05/2025 10:06

@prh47bridge

Sorry to be a pest, but is this the correct citation for the attempted judicial review of ehrc trans-inclusion guidance?

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/1623.html

Because it's a depressing read, if so. Judge 100% focussed on what the men want.

Access denied

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/1623.html

RovingPublicEnquiry · 09/05/2025 10:12

Hi everyone. I've been catching up on the recent threads and I wanted to thank everyone for all the interesting discussions. Also, a big thanks to @nauticant for keeping these threads going and to @KnottyAuty and all those doing the NHS audits for kicking some serious ass! So impressive!!

The conversation about employers' pronoun policies going forward had me thinking back to a point I made when I posted before (been a long time lurker and only recently delurked to comment a few threads back). I think we all agree that being told to use wrong-sex pronouns is absolutely unreasonable, but I would argue that being told not to use correct-sex pronouns to avoid causing offense is also unreasonable. It's different from being asked not to use an offensive word like the "ne" word. We're not just being told to stop using a specific word or phrase, we're being told to stop doing something that is automatic, instinctual, and has been done by humans since the beginning of our evolution – that is, recognizing and referring to sex. I bet that when we were living in caves and grunting and gesturing, we had different grunts and gestures for referring to males and females. In fact, other primate species show differences in their vocalizations and gestures when dealing with individuals of the same or opposite sex (see link below).

Recognizing the sex of others is an evolutionarily developed, automatic and unconscious perceptual ability that is absolutely necessary for the survival of any sexually reproducing species. Trying to stop humans doing this is very different from stopping us using an arbitrary word that's offensive. Our brains were easily able to replace the "ne" word with something much more appropriate because it didn't cause cognitive dissidence. It didn't require us to attempt to override millions of years of evolution.

I like the Stroop effect as a comparator (the phenomenon mentioned in an earlier thread where you try to say the color of words that spell out different colors), but I would argue that the cognitive dissonance and level of discomfort we experience when trying to override our automatic perception of sex is even worse than that caused by the Stroop effect. Our perception of color and our pattern recognition ability that allows us to read words quickly are primal evolutionary traits, but they don't have much bearing on whether we are successful in reproducing, and are therefore under much less evolutionary pressure than sex recognition. People who are color blind or dyslexic have no problem passing on their genes, yet a mutation that made it very difficult for a person to recognize the sex of everyone around them would significantly hamper them in the dating and getting busy department, making that trait strongly deselected for.

What I'm getting at is that of all the ingrained, automatic, perceptual abilities in humans, I think sex recognizing might be one of the strongest and most consistent across all populations (and therefore one of the most painful to try to short circuit). Think about it, people can see colors differently, have different levels of spatial awareness and senses of direction, be better or worse at recognizing faces or picking out voices in a crowd, feel hot and cold differently, etc. People often say, "Oh I have the worst sense of direction," or, "I'm always hot," or, "I'm terrible at recognizing faces," etc., etc. But have you ever heard someone say, while chatting at the water cooler, that they struggle to know whether all the people around them on a daily basis are male or female? It's so crucial to our survival that I think it's probably one of the most stable examples of automatic pattern recognition in humans.

All this is to say that this demand placed on us in the workplace (and many other places) to not notice or refer to sex is different from anything we've encountered before. As mentioned previously, even the most die hard TRAs slip up and correctly sex people in court. Humans are never going to unlearn the ability to recognize sex, full stop. Even if someone could wave a magic wand tomorrow and delete all sexed pronouns from our memories, so that we all just used "they" for everyone, we as a species would probably very quickly naturally develop certain inflections or gestures or spelling variations that would differ slightly when we were referring to males vs. females (and this would probably happen first among women, for whom sex recognition is about self-preservation and safety in addition to reproduction, which is also why this movement is so fundamentally misogynistic).

Employers and governments can't just legislate or wish away an automatic, unconscious perceptual ability shared by all humans. I don't claim to have the answer, other than to suggest that teaching people that any reference to their biological sex is a mortal offense was a terrible terrible mistake. Trans people need to be able to cope with acknowledging their own sex because the rest of humanity cannot be forced to delete an ability that is impossible to delete.

Paper on chimpanzees
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23436383/

This is a fun Stroop effect test. Click on the interactive experiment link to take the test.
faculty.washington.edu/chudler/words.html

Gesture use by chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes): differences between sexes in inter- and intra-sexual interactions - PubMed

Communication and social relationships are two of the most important aspects of primate life, but few studies have focused on linking these aspects in apes. There are some shared social pressures between the two sexes (e.g., kin selection, alliance for...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23436383/

prh47bridge · 09/05/2025 10:16

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 09/05/2025 10:06

@prh47bridge

Sorry to be a pest, but is this the correct citation for the attempted judicial review of ehrc trans-inclusion guidance?

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/1623.html

Because it's a depressing read, if so. Judge 100% focussed on what the men want.

Yes, that's the one. Agree it is depressing.

WandaSiri · 09/05/2025 10:17

RovingPublicEnquiry · 09/05/2025 10:12

Hi everyone. I've been catching up on the recent threads and I wanted to thank everyone for all the interesting discussions. Also, a big thanks to @nauticant for keeping these threads going and to @KnottyAuty and all those doing the NHS audits for kicking some serious ass! So impressive!!

The conversation about employers' pronoun policies going forward had me thinking back to a point I made when I posted before (been a long time lurker and only recently delurked to comment a few threads back). I think we all agree that being told to use wrong-sex pronouns is absolutely unreasonable, but I would argue that being told not to use correct-sex pronouns to avoid causing offense is also unreasonable. It's different from being asked not to use an offensive word like the "ne" word. We're not just being told to stop using a specific word or phrase, we're being told to stop doing something that is automatic, instinctual, and has been done by humans since the beginning of our evolution – that is, recognizing and referring to sex. I bet that when we were living in caves and grunting and gesturing, we had different grunts and gestures for referring to males and females. In fact, other primate species show differences in their vocalizations and gestures when dealing with individuals of the same or opposite sex (see link below).

Recognizing the sex of others is an evolutionarily developed, automatic and unconscious perceptual ability that is absolutely necessary for the survival of any sexually reproducing species. Trying to stop humans doing this is very different from stopping us using an arbitrary word that's offensive. Our brains were easily able to replace the "ne" word with something much more appropriate because it didn't cause cognitive dissidence. It didn't require us to attempt to override millions of years of evolution.

I like the Stroop effect as a comparator (the phenomenon mentioned in an earlier thread where you try to say the color of words that spell out different colors), but I would argue that the cognitive dissonance and level of discomfort we experience when trying to override our automatic perception of sex is even worse than that caused by the Stroop effect. Our perception of color and our pattern recognition ability that allows us to read words quickly are primal evolutionary traits, but they don't have much bearing on whether we are successful in reproducing, and are therefore under much less evolutionary pressure than sex recognition. People who are color blind or dyslexic have no problem passing on their genes, yet a mutation that made it very difficult for a person to recognize the sex of everyone around them would significantly hamper them in the dating and getting busy department, making that trait strongly deselected for.

What I'm getting at is that of all the ingrained, automatic, perceptual abilities in humans, I think sex recognizing might be one of the strongest and most consistent across all populations (and therefore one of the most painful to try to short circuit). Think about it, people can see colors differently, have different levels of spatial awareness and senses of direction, be better or worse at recognizing faces or picking out voices in a crowd, feel hot and cold differently, etc. People often say, "Oh I have the worst sense of direction," or, "I'm always hot," or, "I'm terrible at recognizing faces," etc., etc. But have you ever heard someone say, while chatting at the water cooler, that they struggle to know whether all the people around them on a daily basis are male or female? It's so crucial to our survival that I think it's probably one of the most stable examples of automatic pattern recognition in humans.

All this is to say that this demand placed on us in the workplace (and many other places) to not notice or refer to sex is different from anything we've encountered before. As mentioned previously, even the most die hard TRAs slip up and correctly sex people in court. Humans are never going to unlearn the ability to recognize sex, full stop. Even if someone could wave a magic wand tomorrow and delete all sexed pronouns from our memories, so that we all just used "they" for everyone, we as a species would probably very quickly naturally develop certain inflections or gestures or spelling variations that would differ slightly when we were referring to males vs. females (and this would probably happen first among women, for whom sex recognition is about self-preservation and safety in addition to reproduction, which is also why this movement is so fundamentally misogynistic).

Employers and governments can't just legislate or wish away an automatic, unconscious perceptual ability shared by all humans. I don't claim to have the answer, other than to suggest that teaching people that any reference to their biological sex is a mortal offense was a terrible terrible mistake. Trans people need to be able to cope with acknowledging their own sex because the rest of humanity cannot be forced to delete an ability that is impossible to delete.

Paper on chimpanzees
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23436383/

This is a fun Stroop effect test. Click on the interactive experiment link to take the test.
faculty.washington.edu/chudler/words.html

Great post. I agree 100%.

We have been conditioned to treat unreasonable demands as reasonable because otherwise some men will be sad. (Or angry.)

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 09/05/2025 10:28

Re pronouns, though...

Suppose we win the day, and trans people will always be treated as being of their birth sex, except:

they get a special cross-sex 'gender' certificate, and

they are protected from arbitrary discrimination based on their attempted cross-sex appearance.

Would it be the end of the world to let them be socially cross-sex (name and pronouns)?

I know they'd always be agitating for more. But if we believe in GD, this seems like the main thing that's needed to achieve the therapeutic objective of transitioning.

thenoisiesttermagant · 09/05/2025 10:31

Great post Roving. Completely agree.

This is why it's like organisational coercive control. Picking on words that are inherently not offensive, are used instinctively and reflexively without thinking, so that they can make you walk on eggshells, place you as 'in the wrong' all the time and themselves as 'harmed' when what you've done is just normal.

Children's mental health is also being harmed by this. We're simultaneously told there's a mental health crisis in children and they need to be more resilient then also have been telling them in schools that using bog standard normal English pronouns is somehow worse than physical harm. It's insane. Some children are being sent out into the world expecting everyone to hate them and attributing normal human behaviour to 'hate'. It's child abuse.

thenoisiesttermagant · 09/05/2025 10:34

The thing is being trans MEANS identifying differently to your birth sex. What's wrong with just accepting that? Surely that's better for mental health than demanding others do the impossible all the time and becoming a mentally unwell bully that everyone avoids because if you get it wrong you're abused horribly?

What's wrong with I'm male bodied but identify as / my gender identity is feminine?

lcakethereforeIam · 09/05/2025 10:45

Is it actually illegal to ask to see a GRC? I believe it's illegal for HR, for example, to disclose if someone has one or (i presume) not. But how would HR even know there was one if they couldn't ask? Regular Joe or Josephine Public though? Or even someone or an organisation offering a service where sex is relevant. Surely they can ask? They might not be able to pass the information on though.

Why am I suddenly reminded of Cluedo? Dr Upton, in the women's changing room without a GRC.

WandaSiri · 09/05/2025 10:49

lcakethereforeIam · 09/05/2025 10:45

Is it actually illegal to ask to see a GRC? I believe it's illegal for HR, for example, to disclose if someone has one or (i presume) not. But how would HR even know there was one if they couldn't ask? Regular Joe or Josephine Public though? Or even someone or an organisation offering a service where sex is relevant. Surely they can ask? They might not be able to pass the information on though.

Why am I suddenly reminded of Cluedo? Dr Upton, in the women's changing room without a GRC.

That's what I understood, too. It's not illegal, though you have to have a legitimate reason to ask to see it. Which I would have thought an employer would. And as the employer you can't disclose that someone has one.

WandaSiri · 09/05/2025 10:52

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 09/05/2025 10:28

Re pronouns, though...

Suppose we win the day, and trans people will always be treated as being of their birth sex, except:

they get a special cross-sex 'gender' certificate, and

they are protected from arbitrary discrimination based on their attempted cross-sex appearance.

Would it be the end of the world to let them be socially cross-sex (name and pronouns)?

I know they'd always be agitating for more. But if we believe in GD, this seems like the main thing that's needed to achieve the therapeutic objective of transitioning.

Voluntarily, though. That's the difference. No coercion. You' d probably use wrong-sex or neutral pronouns in your social circle or with family members. But it shouldn't be demanded of you at work or elsewhere.

Nameychangington · 09/05/2025 10:59

RovingPublicEnquiry · 09/05/2025 10:12

Hi everyone. I've been catching up on the recent threads and I wanted to thank everyone for all the interesting discussions. Also, a big thanks to @nauticant for keeping these threads going and to @KnottyAuty and all those doing the NHS audits for kicking some serious ass! So impressive!!

The conversation about employers' pronoun policies going forward had me thinking back to a point I made when I posted before (been a long time lurker and only recently delurked to comment a few threads back). I think we all agree that being told to use wrong-sex pronouns is absolutely unreasonable, but I would argue that being told not to use correct-sex pronouns to avoid causing offense is also unreasonable. It's different from being asked not to use an offensive word like the "ne" word. We're not just being told to stop using a specific word or phrase, we're being told to stop doing something that is automatic, instinctual, and has been done by humans since the beginning of our evolution – that is, recognizing and referring to sex. I bet that when we were living in caves and grunting and gesturing, we had different grunts and gestures for referring to males and females. In fact, other primate species show differences in their vocalizations and gestures when dealing with individuals of the same or opposite sex (see link below).

Recognizing the sex of others is an evolutionarily developed, automatic and unconscious perceptual ability that is absolutely necessary for the survival of any sexually reproducing species. Trying to stop humans doing this is very different from stopping us using an arbitrary word that's offensive. Our brains were easily able to replace the "ne" word with something much more appropriate because it didn't cause cognitive dissidence. It didn't require us to attempt to override millions of years of evolution.

I like the Stroop effect as a comparator (the phenomenon mentioned in an earlier thread where you try to say the color of words that spell out different colors), but I would argue that the cognitive dissonance and level of discomfort we experience when trying to override our automatic perception of sex is even worse than that caused by the Stroop effect. Our perception of color and our pattern recognition ability that allows us to read words quickly are primal evolutionary traits, but they don't have much bearing on whether we are successful in reproducing, and are therefore under much less evolutionary pressure than sex recognition. People who are color blind or dyslexic have no problem passing on their genes, yet a mutation that made it very difficult for a person to recognize the sex of everyone around them would significantly hamper them in the dating and getting busy department, making that trait strongly deselected for.

What I'm getting at is that of all the ingrained, automatic, perceptual abilities in humans, I think sex recognizing might be one of the strongest and most consistent across all populations (and therefore one of the most painful to try to short circuit). Think about it, people can see colors differently, have different levels of spatial awareness and senses of direction, be better or worse at recognizing faces or picking out voices in a crowd, feel hot and cold differently, etc. People often say, "Oh I have the worst sense of direction," or, "I'm always hot," or, "I'm terrible at recognizing faces," etc., etc. But have you ever heard someone say, while chatting at the water cooler, that they struggle to know whether all the people around them on a daily basis are male or female? It's so crucial to our survival that I think it's probably one of the most stable examples of automatic pattern recognition in humans.

All this is to say that this demand placed on us in the workplace (and many other places) to not notice or refer to sex is different from anything we've encountered before. As mentioned previously, even the most die hard TRAs slip up and correctly sex people in court. Humans are never going to unlearn the ability to recognize sex, full stop. Even if someone could wave a magic wand tomorrow and delete all sexed pronouns from our memories, so that we all just used "they" for everyone, we as a species would probably very quickly naturally develop certain inflections or gestures or spelling variations that would differ slightly when we were referring to males vs. females (and this would probably happen first among women, for whom sex recognition is about self-preservation and safety in addition to reproduction, which is also why this movement is so fundamentally misogynistic).

Employers and governments can't just legislate or wish away an automatic, unconscious perceptual ability shared by all humans. I don't claim to have the answer, other than to suggest that teaching people that any reference to their biological sex is a mortal offense was a terrible terrible mistake. Trans people need to be able to cope with acknowledging their own sex because the rest of humanity cannot be forced to delete an ability that is impossible to delete.

Paper on chimpanzees
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23436383/

This is a fun Stroop effect test. Click on the interactive experiment link to take the test.
faculty.washington.edu/chudler/words.html

This is relevant here I think:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

It was originally posted on MN ,and the poster got a ban for it. Ah, the old days.

Pronouns are Rohypnol • Fair Play For Women

There’s a lot of chat around about pronouns right now. Specifically, ‘preferred’ pronouns. By which is usually meant, the pronouns a person would prefer.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns

prh47bridge · 09/05/2025 11:00

WandaSiri · 09/05/2025 10:49

That's what I understood, too. It's not illegal, though you have to have a legitimate reason to ask to see it. Which I would have thought an employer would. And as the employer you can't disclose that someone has one.

Edited

That is correct. It is not illegal for an employer to ask to see a GRC, but it is illegal for them to disclose whether an individual has a GRC (although there are some exceptions where it is allowed).

lcakethereforeIam · 09/05/2025 11:07

I did a bit of googling and found this

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/39006.htm#:~:text=73.It%20is%20not%20unlawful,in%20almost%20all%20circumstances%20unnecessary.

73.It is not unlawful under the GRA to ask a person to produce a GRC,69 but it is in almost all circumstances unnecessary. There are very few situations in which it would be appropriate to ask for proof of legal gender (see Chapter Six).

Although ACAS has this

https://www.acas.org.uk/gender-reassignment-discrimination#:~:text=A%20Gender%20Recognition%20Certificate%20is,or%20is%20applying%20for%20one.

An employer should not ask to see an employee's Gender Recognition Certificate. An employer must not disclose that someone has a Gender Recognition Certificate or is applying for one.

Although it doesn't cite any references. I suspect it would be treated like any other potentially private or information, eg. employers asking female employees or interviewees about pregnancy or plans to become pregnant.

it seems asking for a GRC where relevant was ever illegal. Even the ACAS guidance doesn't say that. Following the SC clarification there's no need to ask because GRCs don't, and never did, magically change a person's sex.

Eta just noticed the footnote hyperlink I'd accidentally copied. Jane Fae🙄 suggested it might be re. the EA. Although if it says why I've not found it.

What the law says - Gender reassignment discrimination - Acas

What gender reassignment discrimination is and how employers and employees can deal with it.

https://www.acas.org.uk/gender-reassignment-discrimination#:~:text=A%20Gender%20Recognition%20Certificate%20is,or%20is%20applying%20for%20one.

Nameychangington · 09/05/2025 11:09

RoyalCorgi · 09/05/2025 09:21

It’s because every NHS trust - or at least all of the ones we have audited, and we have no reason to suspect the others will be different - have written policies that explicitly state that under no circumstances should a trans person - no matter their GRC status - be required to use the facilities for their birth sex. And that anyone who objects to this must be corrected. It is through all their policies like Brighton through a stick of rock. In a sense, they really are all just blindly following orders.

I expect you're right, but it's just mad that so many trusts would have written policies that are quite obviously in breach of the law. You'd think somebody would say something, wouldn't you?

My hope now is that the tribunal decides to make an example of NHS Fife. That they order a massive payout to Sandie Peggie and publish an excoriating judgement that leaves no doubt as to the illegality of the board's policy. If they do that, then other NHS bodies will have to fall in line, whether they like it or not.

You'd think somebody would say something, wouldn't you?

Some of us did. Some of us repeatedly, over the course of some years. I personally have tried to raise the (very obvious) issues with the policies at my Trust, and every time people at the highest level - directors, chief nurse, head of safeguarding - have defended the policy. Every time, the outcome is that the policy is fine and I need to go on re-education camp further training, so I better understand the needs of transpeople.

When the policy of your employer says that questioning someone's gender or right to be in a single sex space, is a hate crime and will get you put on a disciplinary and reported to the police, it takes a lot of courage to raise concerns even very carefully.

Those who have not experienced working in a captured organisation probably can't imagine what it's like to try to raise the issues in that environment. Those of us who see the issues can't even find each other, when the explicit policy of the Trust is that questioning is a hate crime - say something even very mild to the wrong person, and that's you potentially out of a job and reported to the police, potentially losing your livelihood and the possibility of even getting another job somewhere else if you have a hate crime recorded against you on DBS. And it's not just the Trust, unions and professional bodies are also captured and will not support you, they agree that you're a hateful bigot. Chilling doesn't even begin to cover it.

Arran2024 · 09/05/2025 11:09

It was the culture that they all inhabited which felt that the law was irrelevant, that they were supposed to be getting ahead of the law, which would catch up. We are seeing the exact same thing atm with orgs like Girl Guiding, the Hampstead ponds, the WI, all saying it's business as usual and basically sod the law. It's the Gov deciding to allow for data to be incorrectly recorded. It's university and student union policies still telling students to use whatever facilities they fancy.

Are we going to have to take all of them to court?!

prh47bridge · 09/05/2025 11:09

WandaSiri · 09/05/2025 10:52

Voluntarily, though. That's the difference. No coercion. You' d probably use wrong-sex or neutral pronouns in your social circle or with family members. But it shouldn't be demanded of you at work or elsewhere.

Your employer is entitled to put in place rules to ensure workplace harmony. That includes preventing members of staff being offensive to each other.

Any policy must be reasonable. An employer cannot insist that you use a trans-individual's preferred pronouns.

You do not use someone's pronouns when talking to them, so a policy that said you mustn't misgender them would not have any effect in such conversations. The only time you would use someone's pronouns in their presence would be when talking about them to a third party. Even then, it is not unnatural to use their name rather than their pronoun - "I did this and then Roger did that" rather than "I did this and then he did that". And, when an individual has adopted a different name, it would clearly be offensive to insist on using their old name just because you think the new name implies a gender with which you disagree.

An employer can, in my view, insist that you avoid being gratuitously offensive by deliberately using their non-preferred pronouns in their presence. I may be wrong, but I doubt the courts would uphold challenges against such a policy provided it was being enforced reasonably, i.e. people weren't being disciplined for accidentally misgendering someone.

FarriersGirl · 09/05/2025 11:11

@RoyalCorgi I expect you're right, but it's just mad that so many trusts would have written policies that are quite obviously in breach of the law. You'd think somebody would say something, wouldn't you?

@TwoLoonsAndASprout is right. As one of Knottys audit team, I think there is good evidence that there has been a strong push from NHS England and before them the Dept of Health that goes back to at least 2008. I know from my own experience that it would have been very difficult to challenge this either from an organisations perspective or as an individual.
That is not to excuse it though, some of the policies are poorly written and not properly thought through.

Arran2024 · 09/05/2025 12:12

I think that the pronoun thing is more of an American issue, where people routinely call strangers "sir" or "ma'am". It's less common here, sometimes in retail, but I wouldn't expect anyone to use it.

WandaSiri · 09/05/2025 12:19

prh47bridge · 09/05/2025 11:09

Your employer is entitled to put in place rules to ensure workplace harmony. That includes preventing members of staff being offensive to each other.

Any policy must be reasonable. An employer cannot insist that you use a trans-individual's preferred pronouns.

You do not use someone's pronouns when talking to them, so a policy that said you mustn't misgender them would not have any effect in such conversations. The only time you would use someone's pronouns in their presence would be when talking about them to a third party. Even then, it is not unnatural to use their name rather than their pronoun - "I did this and then Roger did that" rather than "I did this and then he did that". And, when an individual has adopted a different name, it would clearly be offensive to insist on using their old name just because you think the new name implies a gender with which you disagree.

An employer can, in my view, insist that you avoid being gratuitously offensive by deliberately using their non-preferred pronouns in their presence. I may be wrong, but I doubt the courts would uphold challenges against such a policy provided it was being enforced reasonably, i.e. people weren't being disciplined for accidentally misgendering someone.

@prh47bridge

I'm giving my opinion about what the position should be and I've posted before about what I think a reasonable workplace policy would be. I am well aware my opinion differs from what is currently thought to be reasonable.

prh47bridge · 09/05/2025 12:26

WandaSiri · 09/05/2025 12:19

@prh47bridge

I'm giving my opinion about what the position should be and I've posted before about what I think a reasonable workplace policy would be. I am well aware my opinion differs from what is currently thought to be reasonable.

In all honesty, we don't know what is currently though to be reasonable by the courts. I don't think anyone has tested it yet. My posts are an educated guess, but I may well be wrong.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 09/05/2025 12:27

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 09/05/2025 10:28

Re pronouns, though...

Suppose we win the day, and trans people will always be treated as being of their birth sex, except:

they get a special cross-sex 'gender' certificate, and

they are protected from arbitrary discrimination based on their attempted cross-sex appearance.

Would it be the end of the world to let them be socially cross-sex (name and pronouns)?

I know they'd always be agitating for more. But if we believe in GD, this seems like the main thing that's needed to achieve the therapeutic objective of transitioning.

The thing about cross sex anything is it doesn't just affect the crossee, but also those crossed into.

If the law and society accepts that some men are enough like women to call them "she", what does say about female people? What is this she-ness that we apparently share with some men?

I'm 100% on board that men who want to distance themselves from other men, or women from other women, should be able to coin new names and pronouns to highlight that difference. What I'm not on board with is them appropriating the existing words of the opposite sex and saying "not only am I not like other men, I'm actually just like women!" because that's stepping over the line from defining yourself to defining someone else.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 09/05/2025 12:38

FlirtsWithRhinos · 09/05/2025 12:27

The thing about cross sex anything is it doesn't just affect the crossee, but also those crossed into.

If the law and society accepts that some men are enough like women to call them "she", what does say about female people? What is this she-ness that we apparently share with some men?

I'm 100% on board that men who want to distance themselves from other men, or women from other women, should be able to coin new names and pronouns to highlight that difference. What I'm not on board with is them appropriating the existing words of the opposite sex and saying "not only am I not like other men, I'm actually just like women!" because that's stepping over the line from defining yourself to defining someone else.

We'd be indulging their belief system without sharing it, and their status (and what we'd tell children) would be 'male transsexual'. Moot point though, because they'll never go for it.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/05/2025 14:13

WandaSiri · 09/05/2025 10:52

Voluntarily, though. That's the difference. No coercion. You' d probably use wrong-sex or neutral pronouns in your social circle or with family members. But it shouldn't be demanded of you at work or elsewhere.

I don't think you mean to imply that there is no coercion in social circles or with family members. There often is.

Hoardasurass · 09/05/2025 14:22

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 09/05/2025 10:28

Re pronouns, though...

Suppose we win the day, and trans people will always be treated as being of their birth sex, except:

they get a special cross-sex 'gender' certificate, and

they are protected from arbitrary discrimination based on their attempted cross-sex appearance.

Would it be the end of the world to let them be socially cross-sex (name and pronouns)?

I know they'd always be agitating for more. But if we believe in GD, this seems like the main thing that's needed to achieve the therapeutic objective of transitioning.

I will never refer to a man as she/her I won't lie nor will.i ever be a willing participant in either their delusions or role playing.
Noone should participate in someone's delusions it's extremely harmful and I have no desire to participate in anyone's role playing sexual fantasy.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/05/2025 14:22

prh47bridge · 09/05/2025 11:09

Your employer is entitled to put in place rules to ensure workplace harmony. That includes preventing members of staff being offensive to each other.

Any policy must be reasonable. An employer cannot insist that you use a trans-individual's preferred pronouns.

You do not use someone's pronouns when talking to them, so a policy that said you mustn't misgender them would not have any effect in such conversations. The only time you would use someone's pronouns in their presence would be when talking about them to a third party. Even then, it is not unnatural to use their name rather than their pronoun - "I did this and then Roger did that" rather than "I did this and then he did that". And, when an individual has adopted a different name, it would clearly be offensive to insist on using their old name just because you think the new name implies a gender with which you disagree.

An employer can, in my view, insist that you avoid being gratuitously offensive by deliberately using their non-preferred pronouns in their presence. I may be wrong, but I doubt the courts would uphold challenges against such a policy provided it was being enforced reasonably, i.e. people weren't being disciplined for accidentally misgendering someone.

It is, however, very common to say "Roger did this, and then he did that." It is not normal to have to be on the lookout for that "he" and say instead "Roger did this, and then Roger said that." It sounds stilted, and that's because it is.

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