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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

1000 replies

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:15

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

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33
prh47bridge · 23/04/2025 23:38

BeLemonNow · 23/04/2025 22:36

The cases they take are discretionary, but...

I suppose there might be a case for direct or indirect discrimination against women in the cases they have chosen to take and policy they have chosen to influence. As the main detriment is to their female members.

Just as an example, suppose a union generally refused to take pregnancy discrimination in the workplace cases. That would obviously be discriminatory against female members.

Possibly.

They clearly can't refuse to defend members just because they are Moslem, for example, but they could legitimately refuse to defend a Moslem member who wears a turban and refuses to wear the crash helmet required for their job.

I don't think it is possible to successfully argue that Unite's refusal to represent SP and the Darlington nurses is a breach of contract, nor is it direct discrimination. It may be possible to argue that their policy is indirect discrimination.

spannasaurus · 23/04/2025 23:41

If they refused the nurses on the grounds of their gender critical beliefs that's the same as refusing someone for being Muslim

prh47bridge · 23/04/2025 23:52

spannasaurus · 23/04/2025 23:41

If they refused the nurses on the grounds of their gender critical beliefs that's the same as refusing someone for being Muslim

Yes, but refusing because of a manifestation of their beliefs is another matter. So, for example, they could refuse to support someone who has used the "wrong" pronouns for a transgender individual as, in that situation, they would be refusing support because of what they did, not because of their beliefs.

spannasaurus · 23/04/2025 23:55

prh47bridge · 23/04/2025 23:52

Yes, but refusing because of a manifestation of their beliefs is another matter. So, for example, they could refuse to support someone who has used the "wrong" pronouns for a transgender individual as, in that situation, they would be refusing support because of what they did, not because of their beliefs.

Ultimately it would be for a tribunal to judge whether they were refused for their beliefs or for a manifestation of those beliefs

Nevertrustacop · 24/04/2025 00:04

No one is obliged to use pronouns of another person's choosing. People are allowed manifest beliefs.

KnottyAuty · 24/04/2025 00:20

prh47bridge · 23/04/2025 23:38

Possibly.

They clearly can't refuse to defend members just because they are Moslem, for example, but they could legitimately refuse to defend a Moslem member who wears a turban and refuses to wear the crash helmet required for their job.

I don't think it is possible to successfully argue that Unite's refusal to represent SP and the Darlington nurses is a breach of contract, nor is it direct discrimination. It may be possible to argue that their policy is indirect discrimination.

Totally irrelevant to the matter in hand but Sikhs wear turbans; not Muslims as far as I know.

prh47bridge · 24/04/2025 00:40

KnottyAuty · 24/04/2025 00:20

Totally irrelevant to the matter in hand but Sikhs wear turbans; not Muslims as far as I know.

Edited

I had to check when I wrote this! Apparently, turbans are seldom worn by Sunni Muslims but is regarded as a requirement by some other branches of Islam, particularly Shia Muslims. However, I'm not an expert on Islam so I may be wrong.

prh47bridge · 24/04/2025 00:41

Nevertrustacop · 24/04/2025 00:04

No one is obliged to use pronouns of another person's choosing. People are allowed manifest beliefs.

True, but that doesn't mean your union has to back you if refusing to use those pronouns gets you into trouble with your employer.

WandaSiri · 24/04/2025 06:23

The employer's policy on pronouns and the union's policy on refusing assistance would both have to be non-discriminatory. So just getting into trouble with the employer on pronouns couldn't be a reason to refuse assistance to a worker unless the workplace policy was itself fair and lawful.

KnottyAuty · 24/04/2025 07:18

prh47bridge · 24/04/2025 00:40

I had to check when I wrote this! Apparently, turbans are seldom worn by Sunni Muslims but is regarded as a requirement by some other branches of Islam, particularly Shia Muslims. However, I'm not an expert on Islam so I may be wrong.

Interesting. Funny how certain words come to have “fixed” meanings or images associated with them. I’d not associated the Middle Eastern head covering as a “turban” related to religion - always assumed a practical/heat related reason. Learned something new today: "Imama" or "Ammama"!

prh47bridge · 24/04/2025 07:35

WandaSiri · 24/04/2025 06:23

The employer's policy on pronouns and the union's policy on refusing assistance would both have to be non-discriminatory. So just getting into trouble with the employer on pronouns couldn't be a reason to refuse assistance to a worker unless the workplace policy was itself fair and lawful.

Edited

I am not convinced that the courts would find such a policy to be discriminatory. It is, at best, indirect discrimination and is, in my view, easy to justify as a proportionate means of achieving the legitimate aim of ensuring workplace harmony by preventing people from being offensive. If you really don't want to use a person's preferred pronouns, it is generally fairly easy to navigate by simply avoiding pronouns at all - using their preferred name, for example. Most, if not all, of the brave women who have fought these cases through the courts seem to have stuck to people's preferred pronouns in most situations. Sandie Peggie, for example, seems to have used Upton's preferred name and preferred pronouns except when she was trying to make it clear to him why she didn't want him in the female changing room while she was experiencing menstrual flooding.

An employer cannot apply such a policy unreasonably but even applying it unreasonably does not mean the policy is discriminatory.

Justabaker · 24/04/2025 07:56

RedToothBrush · 20/04/2025 12:15

Just going to repeat the point about whether Upton lying under oath about being biologically female will ultimately affect the outcome, given the context of there now being a discussion in Fife about there now being no legal defence left...

...does this affect liability in some way?

I think this is where 'belief' and 'woriads' come together again.

Dr U was expressing a statement of belief.

Christians believe that Christ rose from the dead, ascended to heaven and sits at the right hand of God.
I'm not sure that it's possible to prove beliefs are not true. Maybe not sincerely held or frivolous etc - but not perjury.

WandaSiri · 24/04/2025 09:00

prh47bridge · 24/04/2025 07:35

I am not convinced that the courts would find such a policy to be discriminatory. It is, at best, indirect discrimination and is, in my view, easy to justify as a proportionate means of achieving the legitimate aim of ensuring workplace harmony by preventing people from being offensive. If you really don't want to use a person's preferred pronouns, it is generally fairly easy to navigate by simply avoiding pronouns at all - using their preferred name, for example. Most, if not all, of the brave women who have fought these cases through the courts seem to have stuck to people's preferred pronouns in most situations. Sandie Peggie, for example, seems to have used Upton's preferred name and preferred pronouns except when she was trying to make it clear to him why she didn't want him in the female changing room while she was experiencing menstrual flooding.

An employer cannot apply such a policy unreasonably but even applying it unreasonably does not mean the policy is discriminatory.

Of course a workplace policy could be discriminatory. It completely depends on the policy.
A policy that mandated stating and using preferred pronouns could well be.

Names are different from pronouns - the issue was pronouns.

Ditto the union's own policy - would have to balance competing rights, not come down firmly on one side.

prh47bridge · 24/04/2025 09:17

WandaSiri · 24/04/2025 09:00

Of course a workplace policy could be discriminatory. It completely depends on the policy.
A policy that mandated stating and using preferred pronouns could well be.

Names are different from pronouns - the issue was pronouns.

Ditto the union's own policy - would have to balance competing rights, not come down firmly on one side.

How is it discriminatory? In what way are you being treated less favourably by being told to avoid referring to another employee in a way they find offensive?

RedHelenB · 24/04/2025 09:25

prh47bridge · 24/04/2025 09:17

How is it discriminatory? In what way are you being treated less favourably by being told to avoid referring to another employee in a way they find offensive?

Ok

Peregrina · 24/04/2025 09:25

How is it discriminatory? In what way are you being treated less favourably by being told to avoid referring to another employee in a way they find offensive?

Is it not just as offensive to some of us to have to refer to a man as she or her - when we know that they are not women.

thenoisiesttermagant · 24/04/2025 09:26

prh47bridge · 24/04/2025 09:17

How is it discriminatory? In what way are you being treated less favourably by being told to avoid referring to another employee in a way they find offensive?

Using English in a way that is totally different to normal usage can be discriminatory. It imposes a mental load. It's like that test where you have to say the word you read which will be a colour but it will be in a different colour.

It's difficult.

Plus, it's requiring some people to break their own beliefs.

It can discriminate against:

  • anyone with brain fog (menopause)
  • anyone who is non NT who finds lying almost impossible
  • Non-native English speakers
  • anyone with a learning disability
  • people with dementia who will say what they see and do not have the mental capacity to remember a lie
  • anyone who believes that sex is real and immutable and that pronouns are sex-based

I could go on.

For women, it's expecting them to use language associated with a belief system that denies women as a meaningful biological category and denies the reality of sex, so is sexist.

It's a safeguarding risk in certain situations to obscure sex with sex deceptive language.

I will not use sexist language. I will avoid pronouns altogether (because I just about have the mental capacity to do so), but I will not use wrong-sex pronouns for all the reasons above. I believe asking me to do so discriminates against me on grounds of sex, belief, and disability.

It has been demonstrated again and again in court that even those fully signed up to gender ideology cannot stop accidentally using correct sex pronouns. Hilariously. If they can't do it in a court of law, it's an unreasonable expectation to expect other people to.

In my opinion it's akin to requiring every employee do a cartwheel when they discuss another employee. Is that reasonable to respect that employee? What if they really, really really id as cartwheel gender?

WandaSiri · 24/04/2025 09:29

prh47bridge · 24/04/2025 09:17

How is it discriminatory? In what way are you being treated less favourably by being told to avoid referring to another employee in a way they find offensive?

I said mandated and preferred pronouns.

If you are being told that you have to use wrong sex pronouns or neo pronouns against your beliefs, that is offensive to you.

Calling a man a man is only offensive to someone who believes in GII and does not accept that sex is real or that man and woman are neutral biological descriptions.

This comes back to the problem that GII requires other people to perform or manifest its beliefs.

thenoisiesttermagant · 24/04/2025 09:29

I'm not physically capable of doing a cartwheel. I'm not mentally capable and it would be detrimental to my mental health to use wrong sex pronouns.

I'd rather try and do a cartwheel rather than use wrong-sex pronouns as the latter denies my sex class and takes away my rights and is anti-safeguarding. The former is just difficult for a middle-aged woman to do!

thenoisiesttermagant · 24/04/2025 09:33

The problem is if other employees find normal English interaction and normal behaviour offensive, which gender ideology does. And employers should avoid caving to unreasonable demands.

Needspaceforlego · 24/04/2025 09:44

Justabaker · 24/04/2025 07:56

I think this is where 'belief' and 'woriads' come together again.

Dr U was expressing a statement of belief.

Christians believe that Christ rose from the dead, ascended to heaven and sits at the right hand of God.
I'm not sure that it's possible to prove beliefs are not true. Maybe not sincerely held or frivolous etc - but not perjury.

I hear what you are saying about believe.

However he has also treated woman and ignored their requests for same sex carers.

Regardless of the reasons why a woman would want same sex carers, and privacy, his beliefs do not over ride that request.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 24/04/2025 10:06

The SC ruling has taken away from trans people some sex-based rights which they should never have had, but they do still have specific legal rights which are much less harmful to society, viz: the right to be legally recognised as transgender, and the right not to be subjected to discrimination and harassment.

So it might not be unreasonable for an employer to have a rule that says 'to avoid distress, please use preferred names and pronouns'. It's like dealing with a disability.

If the employer also makes it clear that all sex-relevant rules are sex- and not acquired gender-based, then transgender employees are less likely to get into a ruckus about what it all really means. As with religious colleagues, you can tactfully probe their beliefs, but don't be an arse about it.

The idea of unions refusing to represent members on the basis of what they've been accused of is crazy, cart-before-the-horse stuff.

prh47bridge · 24/04/2025 10:10

My apologies for not answering these posts individually.

In my view, a policy that says you must always use someone's preferred pronouns in every situation would not be discriminatory but it may be unreasonable. However, a policy that says you must not, in most situations, use pronouns for an individual that they find offensive is, in my view, neither discriminatory nor unreasonable. It isn't forcing you to refer to Upton as "she", but it is saying you shouldn't refer to him as "he" in most situations if you are one of his work colleagues.

I agree that Upton is a "he". I think I have consistently referred to him as such on these threads. I don't care whether he finds that offensive. I'm not talking to him and I don't work with him. However, if talking to him or in his presence I would either avoid pronouns altogether, use gender-neutral pronouns or, if there really was no other option, refer to him as "she" (unless it was a situation where it was essential for me to use male pronouns in order for my meaning to be clear, e.g. explaining why he isn't allowed in the women's changing room). Yes, I know he isn't a "she", but I don't need to be deliberately offensive to him. I wouldn't be comfortable calling him "she". There would be a certain amount of cognitive dissonance going on. But I can accept a certain amount of discomfort in order to avoid offending others. And I would only use "she" as a last resort, when there was no other way of avoiding calling him "he".

As far as the courts are concerned, it is reasonable for an employer to want employees to avoid being offensive to each other. An employer will want a harmonious workplace. If I was a colleague of Upton's, since I can navigate most conversations without referring to him using either male of female pronouns, it would not be unreasonable of my employer to expect me to do so and to avoid referring to him using male pronouns in most situations. It would, however, be unreasonable for them to insist I use female pronouns for Upton in situations where I could avoid using any pronouns or could use gender-neutral pronouns, or that I use female pronouns in situations where use of male pronouns is necessary to make my meaning clear. If, for example, I go to HR to complain that there is a man using the female changing rooms, I can clearly refer to Upton using male pronouns in that situation as attempting to use female pronouns would render my complaint meaningless.

I don't like the way TRAs are trying to force people to use pronouns in a certain way. I do not support that. And I would like to see pronouns reclaimed so that woman always means biological woman (and biological woman does not mean what Upton thinks it means). But I don't think the courts are the way to do it.

thenoisiesttermagant · 24/04/2025 10:18

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 24/04/2025 10:06

The SC ruling has taken away from trans people some sex-based rights which they should never have had, but they do still have specific legal rights which are much less harmful to society, viz: the right to be legally recognised as transgender, and the right not to be subjected to discrimination and harassment.

So it might not be unreasonable for an employer to have a rule that says 'to avoid distress, please use preferred names and pronouns'. It's like dealing with a disability.

If the employer also makes it clear that all sex-relevant rules are sex- and not acquired gender-based, then transgender employees are less likely to get into a ruckus about what it all really means. As with religious colleagues, you can tactfully probe their beliefs, but don't be an arse about it.

The idea of unions refusing to represent members on the basis of what they've been accused of is crazy, cart-before-the-horse stuff.

But saying 'please use preferred pronouns' is putting one belief as more important than another. And many employees would find that not only difficult but offensive themselves but may not feel able to speak up giving the sacking of GC people in the past. I would.

It's like asking everyone else to fast during Ramadan.

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