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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

1000 replies

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:15

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

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33
SternJoyousBee · 23/04/2025 14:01

Needspaceforlego · 23/04/2025 07:04

Now that's one that I'd never thought about. Young military females being forced to put up with men in their living quarters.

Jesus wept it's not that long since homosexuals were banned from the military because of the 'risk' they passed to colleagues. Yet here we are potentially putting straight men in with women. FFS!!!

And there are so many cases of inappropriate conduct if female recruits who have been sexually harassed by tracing sergeants etc. of course some young men have also been bullied and harassed. There has been some cultural issues for the Armed Forces but going full TWAW just creates another problem

KnottyAuty · 23/04/2025 16:39

Another one off the back of the audit thread today. Shout out to @TwoLoonsAndASprout who spotted the powerful stories of NHS Staff on another thread:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/0a83a87e8d1993e7

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 23/04/2025 16:44

KnottyAuty · 23/04/2025 16:39

Another one off the back of the audit thread today. Shout out to @TwoLoonsAndASprout who spotted the powerful stories of NHS Staff on another thread:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/0a83a87e8d1993e7

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/6364af7dc0f10eaf

And a share token…

WandaSiri · 23/04/2025 16:46

KnottyAuty · 23/04/2025 16:39

Another one off the back of the audit thread today. Shout out to @TwoLoonsAndASprout who spotted the powerful stories of NHS Staff on another thread:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/0a83a87e8d1993e7

Shout out to you both.

Yogachick · 23/04/2025 19:27

So cash strapped NHS trusts are dashing around rustling up unisex facilities so the men don’t get hurty feels instead of,I don’t know,treating some of the hundreds of people on waiting lists?

NoWordForFluffy · 23/04/2025 19:35

Yogachick · 23/04/2025 19:27

So cash strapped NHS trusts are dashing around rustling up unisex facilities so the men don’t get hurty feels instead of,I don’t know,treating some of the hundreds of people on waiting lists?

The comments from the Trusts were bloody ridiculous. What on earth is all the bloody kowtowing about?! For what purpose?

The NHS has gone mad.

RiotAndAlarum · 23/04/2025 19:36

prh47bridge · 22/04/2025 09:14

I understand NC's arguments but, given previous decisions of the ECtHR have set a very low bar for beliefs to be protected, I don't think the courts would agree that GI beliefs are not protected. But let us imagine for a moment that the courts agreed that GI beliefs are not protected. What would that mean?

It would mean that employers could sack an employee simply for holding GI beliefs. They could refuse to employ anyone with GI beliefs, or employ them on worse terms. Shops could refuse to serve anyone with GI beliefs. Service providers could refuse to provide a service to anyone with GI beliefs. And so on. I get that people have been treated like this for having GC beliefs, and a desire for revenge is normal, but that doesn't mean that legalising discrimination against people with GI beliefs is the right way to go. Remember that most people aren't paying much attention to this debate. How many sad face pictures accompanied by "I was sacked for believing TWAW" would be needed to generate public sympathy and allow TRAs to convince people that GC=transphobic?

Yes, some GI beliefs are extreme, but so are the beliefs of some religions. For example, the bible says that male homosexuals should be put to death (Leviticus 20 v13). Some other religions say the same, e.g. Islam. We still protect the beliefs of Jews, Christians, Moslems, etc. However, we don't allow them to express their beliefs in a way that infringes on the rights of homosexuals. We definitely don't allow them to murder homosexuals.

We should certainly ensure that GI beliefs don't prevent free speech or infringe on women's rights, but we don't need to prevent GI being a protected belief for that.

In similar vein, I can understand those on the previous thread who want the WI's actions in admitting trans women to be declared unlawful. I think such a challenge would fail but, if it were to succeed, what would that mean? It would mean that any women's association with 25 or more members could not legally admit trans women into membership even if the (biologically female) membership were unanimously in favour of doing so. It wouldn't just be shutting trans women out of spaces where they weren't wanted. It would be telling women that they can't invite trans women to join their groups even if they want them.

We should certainly point out to WI that the advice they got that said they had to admit trans women was wrong. Since each local WI is an independent organisation, they could leave it up to individual WIs to make their own decision, or they could say that no WI can admit trans women, but they should stop telling WIs that they must admit trans women whether they like it or not. But trying to say that women can't have trans women in their organisation even if they want them is a step too far in my view.

You once kindly confirmed how and when my family and I should give notice on a rental... and now you're having to quote Leviticus in a discussion. Such a pity the law doesn't broaden everyone's minds to the same extent!

(Present company excepted: this is an extremely wide-ranging discussion!! Grin)

stickygotstuck · 23/04/2025 19:40

prh47bridge · 23/04/2025 09:26

(1) For Women Scotland on X: "As reported in @heraldscotland today, we were contacted by the committee, albeit in a manner which contrasted to the paid orgs. The interveners were not contacted. However, while Maggie Chapman remains on that committee, we cannot see how we can respond. We have always been" / X

For those who are not aware, Maggie Chapman, member of the Scottish Parliament and Deputy Convenor of its Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee spoke to a rally in Aberdeen over the weekend and said that she saw "bigotry, prejudice and hatred" coming from the Supreme Court. This is the same Maggie Chapman who, despite holding a degree in zoology from Edinburgh University, stated that she does not know her chromosomes so cannot be certain of her sex.

As an MSP, she has a specific legal obligation to uphold the independence of the judiciary under the Judiciary and Courts (Scotland) Act 2008.

Her outburst has led to this stinging rebuke from the Faculty of Advocates (which represents Scottish barristers) - Faculty protests MSP’s attack on the Judiciary | Faculty of Advocates

Gosh, that letter from the Faculty of Advocates! They are incandescent!!

Will there be an apology and will Maggie Chapman be given her marching orders?

ArchibaldBoyd · 23/04/2025 19:53

That Telegraph article - all about the men.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 23/04/2025 20:43

Peregrina · 23/04/2025 00:11

As I understand it, the Federation told WIs that they had taken legal advice which told them that WIs could not legally exclude trans women from membership, and therefore they had to admit trans women.

I find this interesting. Could individual WIs ask who exactly had given the legal advice and on what basis was the judgement made? Or was it the WI Federation saying "we are going to do this, do you agree?"

I also would like to see the EXACT advice. Even as a non-lawyer. But I expect it will be deemed to be privileged.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 23/04/2025 20:48

Harassedevictee · 23/04/2025 06:38

I expect the Darlington nurses case will be settled. The main differences are there is a group of them and Wes Streeting is responsible not the Scottish Gmt.

The SC ruling happened before their case has started and there is plenty of time to agree a settlement.

What is interesting is what the established unions will do - they refused to represent the nurses (who now have their own union). In my experience Unions are either informed or consulted on policy changes

The unions have been a disgrace on this issue. Absolute fucking disgrace. What can be done about that?

miffmufferedmoof · 23/04/2025 20:50

Apologies as I haven’t read all the threads - does anyone know on what basis the unions have refused to represent Sandie Peggie and the Darlington nurses?

socialdilemmawhattodo · 23/04/2025 20:52

KnottyAuty · 23/04/2025 08:35

I’m really worried these cases will settle. It’s really really important now - more than ever - that these cases get full sunlight. At the time when the policies are being re-drafted.

The scale of this has to come out - I’m up for doubling down on any gardening now to get these cases to the end.

They should not be pressured into settling for something that so clearly in the public interest to continue

I agree. But I am not the individual (s) concerned. So it does ultimately need to be their decision. Are there any alternative routes for exposure/consequence?

KnottyAuty · 23/04/2025 20:54

miffmufferedmoof · 23/04/2025 20:50

Apologies as I haven’t read all the threads - does anyone know on what basis the unions have refused to represent Sandie Peggie and the Darlington nurses?

I listened to a podcast where one of the NHS Staff said that mentioning the words “uterus” and “woman” in the same sentence was a disciplinary offence…. That’s the water they are swimming in… so by simply saying “there’s a man in the changing room” they were labelled as bigots and transphobes. The extent to which these organisations have departed from the understanding of the average person is just staggering. It doesn’t work out well for them at Tribunal. I think Naomi Cunningham said that tribunals on religion/belief have a win rate at about 3%. It’s 80% for GC beliefs…. And still the lemmings throw themselves…

miffmufferedmoof · 23/04/2025 21:01

Thanks @KnottyAuty How has the world gone so mad!
So is it that the unions wouldn’t represent them because they’d committed a disciplinary offence?

Conxis · 23/04/2025 21:03

miffmufferedmoof · 23/04/2025 20:50

Apologies as I haven’t read all the threads - does anyone know on what basis the unions have refused to represent Sandie Peggie and the Darlington nurses?

Because the big unions help to write and sign off on the NHS HR policies. So they believe the policy of allowing trans women to use the changing room of their preferred gender is correct and anyone objecting is bigoted

prh47bridge · 23/04/2025 21:16

socialdilemmawhattodo · 23/04/2025 20:48

The unions have been a disgrace on this issue. Absolute fucking disgrace. What can be done about that?

My guess is not much from a legal perspective. Whilst Unite do provide legal assistance to members, their rulebook is clear that any representation is only available "as the Executive Council may consider appropriate". Legal representation is therefore not guaranteed. In this instance, the Executive Council has clearly decided that the appropriate representation for women having problems due to GI policies is none at all. That could mean they are captured, or it could mean they've been told by their lawyers that TWAW and therefore they would lose any such cases. Given the comments of their General Secretary following the Supreme Court decision, it sounds like things are not going to change any time soon.

It would clearly be possible to change things by electing an Executive Council that understands the law and women's concerns. Whilst women are only about 30% of Unite's membership as I understand it, there will be many members who don't bother voting in elections. If the women put on a united front, it may be possible to force change.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 23/04/2025 21:21

@prh47bridgeas always, thank you for your insight.

Arran2024 · 23/04/2025 22:05

I understand that unions have long refused to support members who are accused of stuff like racism. So there must be some clause in the small print which lets them remove themselves if it is breached.

WandaSiri · 23/04/2025 22:11

Arran2024 · 23/04/2025 22:05

I understand that unions have long refused to support members who are accused of stuff like racism. So there must be some clause in the small print which lets them remove themselves if it is breached.

Very possibly, that would explain it. I bet the clause is unlawful, though.

prh47bridge · 23/04/2025 22:25

WandaSiri · 23/04/2025 22:11

Very possibly, that would explain it. I bet the clause is unlawful, though.

If, as with Unite, it essentially says that legal representation is at the Executive Council's discretion, I can't see why that would be unlawful. It is a discretionary benefit, not a guaranteed one.

spannasaurus · 23/04/2025 22:28

prh47bridge · 23/04/2025 22:25

If, as with Unite, it essentially says that legal representation is at the Executive Council's discretion, I can't see why that would be unlawful. It is a discretionary benefit, not a guaranteed one.

If they decided not to represent Muslims would you say that was not unlawful because its a discretionary benefit not a guaranteed one

thenoisiesttermagant · 23/04/2025 22:32

Surely if the 'discretion' always disadvantages one group of members with a particular pc, compared to others without it who do get legal help, that's discrimination under ea2010 and illegal.

WandaSiri · 23/04/2025 22:33

prh47bridge · 23/04/2025 22:25

If, as with Unite, it essentially says that legal representation is at the Executive Council's discretion, I can't see why that would be unlawful. It is a discretionary benefit, not a guaranteed one.

You've misunderstood. The pp was talking about the sort of clause which said that they wouldn't represent if it went against their values or something like that.

Hypothetical, of course.

BeLemonNow · 23/04/2025 22:36

The cases they take are discretionary, but...

I suppose there might be a case for direct or indirect discrimination against women in the cases they have chosen to take and policy they have chosen to influence. As the main detriment is to their female members.

Just as an example, suppose a union generally refused to take pregnancy discrimination in the workplace cases. That would obviously be discriminatory against female members.

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