NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

Following the SC ruling it is now easier to say she wants them to use her pronouns and for the colleague to be disciplined if they refuse.

I would say the poster isn't asking for the GII adherent to use her pronouns, she just wants them to talk normally! What they are doing is ascribing to her a belief in GII and a GI which she doesn't have.

ETA: I used they/them pronouns for the colleague because I don't know whether they are male or female.

I believe the term she used was "immersive role play".

The thing about immersive role play is the NPCs have pretend to buy in to be convincing. Sandie, sadly for DU, wasn't interested in being an NPC of any type in DUs game

I love her. She is so fabulous to listen to.

Another heart of the matter post.

What is gender and how would I know if I have one?

Germaine Greer’s explanation to Krishnan Guru-Murthy a few years ago was so clear but all he could ask in response was why couldn’t she just #bekind

I consider being called cis-gender is offensive and downright rude.

It also breaks the Second Rule of Gender Club "You do not get to tell me what my gender is"

I am an unreformed pedant in real life, and there are many, many nasty neologisms used in the gender-queer lexicon. "Cis" is one of the most pointless, and I detest it heartily. I also hate the term "transphobia". But the only way anyone would know this would be to look at my face while they were using the word. People tell me my face always betrays my thoughts and feelings.

Thanks for this. Really interesting interview - they are on gender from 33m or so but after that she talks about masculinity and is spot on with her observations. We should all be watching her speak in schools rather than a TV drama

Also here a few years before with Kirsty Wark. Gosh with hindsight the interviewers seem really really idiotic now. We should dredge up a few more of these clips

The interview with Kirsty Wark is one of my favourites. You can tell by the end that they're having a laugh but Germaine Greer is so forthright and down to earth it's wonderful.

thanks for posting the clip. In my original post I nearly suggested that the clip should be compulsory viewing but decided that could be considered to be totalitarian 😂

I believe the women of the WI wanted a vote and the management did not allow it. I suspect if there was a vote it would be resoundingly in favour of single sex. However, regardless, accurate language needed so as not to deceive

I have been trying to find the current constitution of the WI. I have found a version that can see no reference to TW so it would be interesting to know if they ever update the actual constitution or have just relied on TWAW

As WI is a charity it’s constitution is in its governing documents:

https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/en/charity-search/-/charity-details/803793/governing-document

that’s the main charity and it seems each branch is a separate charity but I’d be surprised if they didn’t use a standard governing document. We can complain to the charity commission I think if necessary.

I agree. I am not saying organisations should do it. And clearly people can vote with their feet if they don't like what an organisation is doing or form their own organisation. If there are enough of them, the organisation will have to listen or its existence will be under threat. And, of course, looking specifically at Guides, it is open to Guides groups to form a breakaway organisation that excludes trans girls if they wish, just as a number of Scouts groups broke away from the Scout movement and formed the Baden-Powell Scouts Association. But I hope that won't be necessary. I hope it will be possible to reclaim Guides as a girls-only organisation.

Agreed.

I'm fine with that, but some on this seem to want to insist that such a group is not possible regardless of what you call it. They are saying that you can have a group for women only, or you can have a group for everyone, but you can't have a group for women and trans women.

The thing here is that how do you gatekeep which men are kept out - is it how red their lippy is? It comes down to quite offensive feminine stereotyping and they wouldn't win if the mythical Pete challenged any attempt to exclude them because they weren't feminine enough to be a 'transwoman' especially since all that is required to be a transwoman is to say 'I am a transwoman'.

No-one's saying they can't set up groups like this, only that they'd lose any discrimination case brought by the mythical Pete who was excluded for being a man who wasn't feminine enough.

The tribunal's decision said that Forstater denied the right of someone with a GRC to be the sex to which they have transitioned and that this meant her beliefs were not WORIADS. To quote from the judgement, the judge said that Forstater's "position is that even if a trans woman has a Gender Recognition Certificate, she cannot honestly describe herself as a woman. That belief is not worthy of respect in a democratic society. It is incompatible with the human rights of others that have been identified and defined by the ECHR and put into effect through the Gender Recognition Act". The judge regarded Forstater's GC beliefs as "absolutist". The real sticking point seemed to be that Forstater would not agree to always refer to trans women as women.

The EAT said that this was setting the bar for a belief to be WORIADS far too high and overruled the judge.

That would be my view. And no, it didn't happen in the WI.

The WI is not actually a single organisation. Each local WI is an independent organisation, but these organisations are all members of the Federation of WIs (members might not be the term they use but I'm not checking!). As I understand it, the Federation told WIs that they had taken legal advice which told them that WIs could not legally exclude trans women from membership, and therefore they had to admit trans women.

I'm not convinced they would lose given that the courts really don't like to interfere with associations and only step in when they have no choice. In most situations, the courts will bend over backwards to accommodate associations, allowing them to get away with things that would clearly be prohibited for employers, service providers and public bodies.

Getting away from legal talk, I presume people have seen this?

Keir Starmer does not believe trans women are women, No 10 says - BBC News

This is, of course, the same Keir Starmer who said that Rosie Duffield was "not right" to say that only women have a cervix.

With so many politicians on the left busily retconning their positions, it looks very much like the tide has turned.

I can totally see the logic that a female groups cannot accept a subset of men - pink leggings Isla.

There will be parents out their who probably don't realise the Girl Guides are in effect a mixed organisation.
And surely the GG are leaving themselves open to false advertising should a Girl, whos possibly already been abused, go along to be faced with a transgirl. And come home even more traumatised than she went out the door.

Yes let's face it he couldn't exactly keep his TWAW stance.

Even more weight to Sandies side. When does the Darlington nurses case start?