NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

6.2.2 "the date of transition"
6.3 "the early stages of transition"

Which is it? An event or a process?

What does that say about family relationships to make that comparison?

Agree.
but the GMC are abdicating their responsibility in not providing the information about a doctor’s sex. Some patients (probably mainly women) need to know for some interactions they have with the medical profession - in the same way they need to know the doctor is medically qualified.

if the GMC don’t make this information available it, who will? I can’t think of any other sensible place for it to be recorded.

And again here the language unravels, they are allowed to use the female CR from the day they start "coming to work in their acquired gender". So it's not the case that they have "always" been whatever the acquired gender is, it's putting on a skirt and lippy. That's their definition of womanhood.

No worries!

The BeKind thing has been turning over in my mind. I said up thread (or 10) that Kind and Nice are different things.

To me Kind is caring for someone and having their best interests at heart. That includes respect and healthy boundaries. Sometimes it means saying no and having difficult conversations. It’s honest and authentic.

Being Nice is smiling along, nodding and agreeing with everything. To me it means either not maintaining boundaries or maintaining a pretence of agreement. It’s passive and has the “nice” person’s own interests at heart - rewards of praise, likeability, survival, acceptance etc.

It’s a shame that BeKind has been hijacked

Yes, but take this one step further: I know the social model of disability is popular and I see why it's attractive, but it's largely incorrect, isn't it? We call certain people disabled because they lack abilities that most of us have. In your example, no, if the world were set up for people in wheelchairs I wouldn't be disabled; I'd just use a wheelchair when convenient. It is objectively better to have the choice to walk when you want to, and we don't serve anyone's needs by pretending otherwise.

My daughter is diagnosed with autism but if you met her you would have no idea, though you might find her difficult, rude. Anyway, her type of autism is called Pathological Demand Avoidance Syndrome. One of the common factors in PDA is the role playing as a coping strategy. People with autism lack a core sense of self. PDA role playing involves searching around for ways to operate safely in the world, by copying others for example, or taking on a personna.

When she was at primary school, my daughter basically played at being Hannah Montana. She would get into trouble for the sassy eye rolling - she didn't always know how to use the part appropriately. But it kind of worked.

She went to an asd secondary school. Even 15 years ago there was a girl there who identified as a cat.

Anyway, this school now apparently has loads of trans kids. And imo it's part of this role playing business. They can't show the real them, so they take an off the shelf identity.

Looking at the young people I know who are trans, they were the awkward ones when they were younger. Struggled with friendships, highly anxious. I def think autism is highly implicated in being trans.

Btw have any of you seen / read The Hours (book by Michael Cunningham)? It is a tribute to Virginia Wolf's Mrs Dalloway. In both, the main character does things because it is an act, a performance, not because she really wants to do it. So when she makes a cake she is performing and becomes "lady making cake" rather than actually wanting to make a cake. This is PDA/autism and I reckon is very much what a trans identity consists of. They are performing femininity as a coping strategy.

Anyone posted this yet?

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-express-reported-police-referring-34687715?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

The Scottish Daily Express appear to be standing strong though

This is what I keep thinking. Certainly in children, I think ND kids are highly likely to question their gender as one part of the whole identity crisis that they experience growing up in a NT world. They are inherently vulnerable, often prone to fixation, so I can see how easily they could be convinced to go all-in on the idea of being trans.

As for trans adults, I'm seeing a high degree of narcissism in the trans activists, and the language and behaviour in general comes across as immature. It's all "me me me, give me what I want", with no consideration for how that affects other people, and an apparent inability to emotionally cope with any form of rejection. As a society, we've pandered to it, like exhausted parents giving in to the demands of stroppy toddlers!

I'm saying ND, rather than autism, because unmanaged ADHD can look a lot like narcissism, so I wonder whether there's a link there. Perhaps a gender-questioning neurodivergent child who didn't get appropriate psychotherapeutic help might become a narcissistic trans adult. All my own speculation, of course! I'm ND myself, and I found growing up extremely challenging, so I can relate to kids who might want to avoid it altogether.

(As an aside, @KnottyAuty I've just realised your username is Auty, not Aunty, and now it makes sense 😂. ND of course responsible for me misreading it repeatedly.)

That was the old theory for the cause of male homosexuality & was nonsense then too.

I agree
But I had a sudden thought that TRA were somehow tapping into that concept in persuading others to change/enable for them. Am I even making sense?!

You are. It's the simultaneous evocation of "I'm at a disadvantage so it's your job to make it up to me" AND "how dare you suggest that I'm at a disadvantage, I'm only at a disadvantage because society" that is going on, and I'm afraid it's poisonous in both cases.

I'm talking about the legal process. Basically the trans renaming process follows the adoption process.

Of course, you could claim that adoption is equally selling a false narrative, obliterating the old identity.

I'm not making any judgements here, just saying that if a trans person officially changes their documents, it is based on the adoption model.

An excellent example of this can be seen in the Storyville documentary ' Petite Fille' which tells the story of a little boy who thinks he's a girl and whose family transition him. In it, the mother very openly tells of how desperate she was for a girl and how disappointed she felt when he was born. He comes across as actually quite 'boyish' but dresses up as a princess and a butterfly - in girly style.

I don't think an argument that she was lied to and sent the email in haste will help her. She is a consultant, which makes her senior, so the question is whether she acted reasonably. The courts do give a degree of latitude in this, but from what I understand of this email sending it without any investigation at all is highly unlikely to be reasonable.

Regardless of how she wants to approach it, she could appoint her own legal representation. Being misled by DU won't help her. Complying with Fife's policies may help a little, but it smacks of "I was only following orders", and that doesn't go well as a defence, particularly if it should have been obvious to you that you were doing something that was wrong.

The conversation surrounding Body Dysmorphic Disorder and Gender Dysphoria being part of the same illness is an interesting one.

My own experience is that I have suffered from extreme Body Dysmorphic Disorder (BDD) which was due to a genetic facial condition requiring several complicated surgeries during my teenage years.

But it was never enough and my head did not catch up with the mirror. My reflection has never been an accurate representation of what I see in my mind, more like one of those fairground mirrors that distorts everything.

Thankfully I had a responsible surgeon who said No and instead referred me for therapy.
But if I was so inclined, I could find a thousand surgeons to operate on me now, even though I don't need it.

Reading about the Gender Dysphoria experiences of Transpeople and how they feel about how they look and feel brings it home for me how similar it all sounds to BDD and also Anorexia (which is treated as a sub category of BDD).

The medical profession is failing Transpeople and I believe history will look back on those doctors as perpetuators of medical abuse and malpractice. All it will take is one malpractice lawsuit to be successful and the tide will turn.

Surgery should never be the solution for a mental illness and as a PP has rightly pointed out, it is often never enough.

The huge difference being that we are referring to Dr Upton as an adult.

However, I would also think that it would be hugely damaging to refer to an adoptive child's previous name as their 'deadname'.

I'm not making any judgements here, just saying that if a trans person officially changes their documents, it is based on the adoption model

I think a key point here is that adoption applies to children, whereas GRC are for adults, and so are relevant to DBS & professional registration.

Validation of untruthful & misleading documentation poses a risk to patients and the public.

That said, I'm an adoptee who went through school just wanting to be like everyone else, so I can understand not wanting people to know about a previous name/situation. I just don't think it trumps safety.

https://x.com/SEENpoliceUK/status/1890831030862430420

They want the police to investigate the Scottish Daily Express for harrassment of Dr Upton!

If the person being adopted is a young adult, as gender transitioners are, destroying their old identity seems cruel and potentially harmful. Their earlier self is not dead, any more than the pre-transition self, the pre-marriage woman, the pre-life in religion woman or man is.

Why act as though they are entering a witness protection programme when they aren't?

Adoption in infancy is not a comparable situation.

My example wasnt a good one but I’m not sure that the model is “incorrect”. It is a useful lens and it helps look at the physical work from a different perspective. The idea is to provide a universal design which meets everyone’s (or as many as possible) needs. It’s helped do a lot of good.

But you’ve given a great example of how that thinking can be twisted around when we are looking at feelings rather than physical problems.

DU isn’t just popping into a wheelchair for their own convenience. They’re using their metaphorical wheelchair to ram everyone else out of the way…. I’m imagining tyre tracks … are we back to the bus again 🤣

Thank you @prh47bridge - that does make sense. And actually as a Consultant trained to think and challenge, "I was only following orders" is a terrible position.

That said, what is considered reasonable in NHS land would be a very interesting topic to unpick. Or a nightmare.

To JoMarch - I read your clear and accurate comments in the Times, cheering you on, then was delighted to see your name in the list of watchers at the series of webinars organised by Baroness Nicholson where she was on a fact finding mission.

This has been going on for too long.

This is also one of the cruelties that can be inflicted on trans widows and their children - the pressure to pretend, by extension, that their old life didn't exist.

You are missing my point here.

Family alienation is a feature, not a bug of trans identity. It is deliberate and comes from the person wanting to reject their past, and not the other way around.