NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

I've been following along on twitter - delurking to say thank you for all your hard work keeping track of proceedings nauticant.

This case has been a conversation topic with friends who I'd previously thought were unfazed by the impacts of GI. The absolute arrogance and vindictiveness of Upton, the outright denial of biological realities by medical professionals and the appalling treatment of Sandie Peggie for standing her ground on her basic right to single sex facilities is cutting through any last vestiges of 'live and let live' good will with many previously 'accepting' women.

Hopefully the Faye Russell-Caldicott case will get widespread coverage too.

The thing is, 'lawyer' isn't a protected job title, unlike 'solicitor' where it's a criminal offence to call yourself one if you're not. While it's not unusual to say you're a lawyer when you're a solicitor, anyone can claim to be one, if they so desire!

Ashley is probably very much a know it all layperson!

As for Tunnocks, I'm not sure I can choose between them. It'd be like having a favourite child! 🤣

@Boiledbeetle thanks so much for the images!
Brilliant!

I think my favourite is the priscilla queen of the desert type one - very apt

EDI seems to have become all about the trans and nothing else matters. Meanwhile more black women die in childbirth, south asians are more likely to be diabetic, younger people with learning disabilities aged 18 to 34 were 30 times more likely to die of Covid than others the same age, childrens health is considered to be getting worse. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/blogs/prevention-better-cure-need-prioritise-childrens-health

EDI needs to get back to doing things that may actually help,

💯

Upton's testimony could have been used as a case example of coercive control. Twisting everything NC said, even the smallest thing, to benefit him, making himself the victim (DARVO as NC so effectively pointed out) undermining accepted truths and obvious fact. In that setting it wasn't very successful (and shows a huge ego to think it would work) but in a private relationship or in a workplace already inclined to abuse their staff and deny reality and disallow free speech on this issue - very effective. I suspect it's his standard way of operating and NHS Fife clearly colludes with him in it, which is why he didn't think through the consequences of doing so in an open justice setting.

It underlines why the judge ruling that compelled / forced speech was not to be allowed was so important. This is what abusers do - they try to control everything about their victims down to their language, how they express themselves, their 'tone' but of course as SP found, victims are always in the wrong so even if you do one thing one day and it's wrong (looking at Upton) the next day the OPPOSITE will be equally wrong (avoiding looking at him). So they're made to walk on eggshells and importantly, can never win, never appease the abuser.

In terms of who harassed who the simple fact that one side tried to compel the other side to lie really should be enough for a ruling. Only one side tried to control the other side's speech. Only one side tried to get the other side to lie.

Yes. I find it annoying when people either get upset or confused when they discover that someone they disapprove of actually agrees with them on something, or they are surprised when somebody they approve of disagrees with them.

Even worse is when people agree or disagree with someone based solely on whether they approve or disapprove of them.

All that should matter is whether, on the point in question, a person's view makes sense or not - not who they are, not what they stand for, and not who they are aligned with.

Somebody here linked to this article last week

The thoughtlessness of guilt by association | Alan Sokal | The Critic Magazine

JustBitetheKnotsOff · Today 08:01

DU comes across as a deeply irritating, self centred individual but is not the one who made the actual decision to suspend a nurse without due procedure, nor the one responsible for the whole mess around policies for single sex vs single 'gender' facilities.

But he's the sole cause of the entire shit show and one of the witnesses let slip that she'd asked for his input into the proceedings. He must have known very well that Sandie would be right in the mire and I'm sure that he was hoping for compensation.

It appears that Fife has no TG / changing room policy, yet the appear to act as though they have, based on self ID. Surely that puts them in a sticky situation? After all, it has no basis, or backing, in law.

On the WhatsApp theme, I've had it on my laptop for about 6 years. It always loads conversations from my phone and vice versa. I got a new phone a few weeks ago, the other one was completely dead.

Everything, passwords, photos, WhatsApp, all of it transferred neatly to this one.

If his phone is the unfortunate victim of an unexpected maritime incident, the evidence will not remain in Davey Jones' Locker...

Yes, if I was doing an admission clerking for a patient, as someone else explained upthread this would involve taking a history and doing an examination. My routine examination would involve doing obs, unless a nurse had done her or his bit of the clerking just before I'd arrived, then they wouldn't need repeating as the nurse would have just done them. If there had been a delay between the nurse and doctor clerking, I'd do the obs again anyway, as the patient's condition might have changed. It's not at all unusual for doctors to do them afaik.

Yes and it's been upheld in court, e.g. https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/fam/2024/1456

The process of gender recognition under the GRA 2004, rather than being based on self-recognition, is one of expert diagnosis followed by scrutiny by a specialist panel. There is, however, no requirement under the law for an applicant to have progressed beyond diagnosis to any form of medical treatment, let alone surgery.

Yes. It seems to cover everyone from an Eton-and Oxbridge billionaire who isn't actually the son of a Lord, down to the poor dab in the schoolyard who doesn't have the local accent and is unfortunate enough to know one end of a book from the other.

And I'm very tired of hearing "middle-class" used as a kneejerk gotcha that supposedly invalidates everything a person thinks or says or does. There are situations where class really is an issue but others where it isn't. 'Human activity is trashing the planet' doesn't magically become untrue just because the person who says it has a degree.

According to the law, a man just has to "live as female", whatever that means:

https://www.dacbeachcroft.com/en/What-we-think/DACB-succeeds-in-pro-bono-Gender-Recognition-Act-appeal

Bot-Excluding Radical Technophobe

That's the T shirt?!

The thing is there is a class (not necessarily middle) who are overpromoted, overpaid and underskilled. DEI falls neatly here. I've heard it called the 'managerial class' but that doesn't quite capture it either.

They usually have degrees but often quite meaningless ones or ones that bear no relation to what they're employed to do. And do very, very stupid things without consequence. As IB did. I think on another thread there was something about a crisis of competence too. Often they are public sector so public money is being pissed up the wall to support their incompetence. Lots of examples from the SP case to the post office scandal to the failure of management in the Letby case.

I'm not sure what to replace 'working class' and 'middle class' with, especially since these are terms people instinctively recognise. It's something to do with people doing non-jobs which they don't lose if they fuck up. Working class people do tend to lose their jobs when they mess up, or lose business.

As evidenced by SP, sometimes they even lose their jobs when they've done nothing wrong.

I did it! I've felt like Sisyphus trying to catch up but finally got there.

I'd have thought all of these things could be taught in medical and nursing training and acknowledged in medical practice and by the devolved public health agencies without the need for any EDI departments.

Whatever they are, these non-job-havers are rife in the admin/support/managerial side of academia…

Hell, yes.

And when they fail, they fail upwards.

David Graeber has an effective term for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs

Another who thanks Jo March for her comments in The Times. I added a few but I too have a rare name and would be easily identified.

If the judge/counsel do go down the route of establishing BU 's sex, maybe a request for a statement from Sir Robert Winston, coupled with Debbie Hayton who admits they are male might cover both sides?

💯

I wonder whether this is all part of Sandie and her teams plan to shake up NHS around the trans issue?
These registered health professionals are being asked under oath whether Upton is male or female. To claim they can't say is a lie as they are qualified medical/nursing staff so risk being reported to their regulator.

What HCP wants to risk this, There's nothing scarier than threat to their registration so that might be the thing that causes other health professionals in the future to want nothing to do with any of this

@TwoLoonsAndASprout You are 100% correct.

Caramel Wafers are the superior Tunnock's confectionery item.

Can I interest you in a normal size, or extra large size bar?

Oh be still my beating heart! I knew I loved this place!! Both, please! Both!

Giant size caramel wafers! 😍
I didn't know such a thing existed. Now I need to find out where I can get some!