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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:06

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

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15
Waitwhat23 · 15/02/2025 16:05

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 15/02/2025 15:58

Finally got my Mumsnet login sorted and waited my 24hrs in the isolation tank because I need to delurk and say thank you, SO MUCH for this space, and these threads. Particular thanks to @nauticant and @ickky for keeping this behemoth afloat. Oh and Tribunal Tweets - such an important service you guys provide. I know there was a tiny push for the tweets to be re-posted here in a separate thread, but for me I needed the commentary, the shared WTAFs, the speculation on who should play whom in the movie version of all this. It helped anchor the tribunal in reality, and I think that’s vital - this is not something remote, happening to other people. It’s here and it’s happening to us.

I peaked some time ago, courtesy of an ROGD child (who, fingers, toes, eyes, tits and everything else crossed, is now safely out the other side, though I do live in eternal fear). I researched and researched and came across Hannah Barnes and Helen Joyce, and somewhere along the way I read (heard?) an interview with someone (I feel like it was Graham Linehan) who was asked why the UK was so terfy, and he said “Mumsnet”. And it’s true - you are the loveliest, viperiest, rights hoarding dinosaurs anywhere on the interwebs. I am endlessly impressed by the cogent arguments, the informed commentary, and the real thoughtfulness of everyone on here - by which I mean the sort of thoughtfulness that takes on board all information and is prepared to change course in the face of new facts. Truly, this is a magical place and I have found such comfort here when I was really low and angry and in despair.

But I may lose you all when I say: the Caramel Wafer is the superior Tunnock’s confectionery, and I will brook no discussion on this matter.

Great post and hi!

I will only disagree you on one point. Caramel wafers are the gakkiest Tunnock's offerings. Snowballs, followed by Coconut Log, followed by Teacake is by far the best order.

BezMills · 15/02/2025 16:07

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 15/02/2025 15:58

Finally got my Mumsnet login sorted and waited my 24hrs in the isolation tank because I need to delurk and say thank you, SO MUCH for this space, and these threads. Particular thanks to @nauticant and @ickky for keeping this behemoth afloat. Oh and Tribunal Tweets - such an important service you guys provide. I know there was a tiny push for the tweets to be re-posted here in a separate thread, but for me I needed the commentary, the shared WTAFs, the speculation on who should play whom in the movie version of all this. It helped anchor the tribunal in reality, and I think that’s vital - this is not something remote, happening to other people. It’s here and it’s happening to us.

I peaked some time ago, courtesy of an ROGD child (who, fingers, toes, eyes, tits and everything else crossed, is now safely out the other side, though I do live in eternal fear). I researched and researched and came across Hannah Barnes and Helen Joyce, and somewhere along the way I read (heard?) an interview with someone (I feel like it was Graham Linehan) who was asked why the UK was so terfy, and he said “Mumsnet”. And it’s true - you are the loveliest, viperiest, rights hoarding dinosaurs anywhere on the interwebs. I am endlessly impressed by the cogent arguments, the informed commentary, and the real thoughtfulness of everyone on here - by which I mean the sort of thoughtfulness that takes on board all information and is prepared to change course in the face of new facts. Truly, this is a magical place and I have found such comfort here when I was really low and angry and in despair.

But I may lose you all when I say: the Caramel Wafer is the superior Tunnock’s confectionery, and I will brook no discussion on this matter.

Each tae their ane! Team Teacake here but been known to enjoy a wafer (free on Loganair)

Sortumn · 15/02/2025 16:09

I wonder if in the case of the Darlington nurses they put up and shut up for a while, as the behaviour escalated to walking round in underwear whereas in SP's case BU was so defensive that he was on the offensive straight away. There was less time for other nurses to notice how this was playing out before SP was made an example of.
I forget who made the comment that amounted to the risk of her getting the other nurses onside.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 15/02/2025 16:10

@Waitwhat23 and @BezMills: I did warn you I would lose you all with that statement!

SirChenjins · 15/02/2025 16:11

Just catching up with this latest thread…can someone remind me, is Isla Bumba being called as a witness? Or has she already been called?

CheekySnake · 15/02/2025 16:17

Sortumn · 15/02/2025 16:09

I wonder if in the case of the Darlington nurses they put up and shut up for a while, as the behaviour escalated to walking round in underwear whereas in SP's case BU was so defensive that he was on the offensive straight away. There was less time for other nurses to notice how this was playing out before SP was made an example of.
I forget who made the comment that amounted to the risk of her getting the other nurses onside.

Upton himself said that he was afraid that she would get the other nurses to take her side

JustPeaked · 15/02/2025 16:19

First ever post. Made an account yesterday after I saw a call for the lurkers to say hi. I’ve waited 24 hours to say thank you. A massive thank you to everyone on the thread.

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 15/02/2025 16:20

SirChenjins · 15/02/2025 16:11

Just catching up with this latest thread…can someone remind me, is Isla Bumba being called as a witness? Or has she already been called?

not been called yet

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 15/02/2025 16:24

JustPeaked · 15/02/2025 16:19

First ever post. Made an account yesterday after I saw a call for the lurkers to say hi. I’ve waited 24 hours to say thank you. A massive thank you to everyone on the thread.

Mumsnet account twin - I did precisely the same!

KnottyAuty · 15/02/2025 16:28

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2025 09:50

ED demonstrates a belief that SP is beneath her and that she somehow who do things better because she's nicer and understands the issues better.

It's a form of contempt that's really quite unpleasant.

It's funny how throughout this case, just one or two sentences from the witnesses are revealing such a huge amount in such concise form.

I know which particular things stood out for me but I’d love to here yours/others?!

its very difficult to talk about this case with those who haven’t been following closely. Direct quotes are a great way to cut through that problem.

Being able to say that X said Y under oath really helps people realise that it’s not just barny on twitter and that this is mainstream/serious

Taytoface · 15/02/2025 16:28

Big wave to the lurkers. This one has been a wild ride! Although nothing can quite beat the emotional support cast of thousands in Allison Baileys case

NotAGentleReminder · 15/02/2025 16:29

usernameinserthere · 15/02/2025 14:42

Helpful audio summary here from the Times

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/sexmattersorg_employmenttribunal-activity-7295805942783193136-y6AE?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&rcm=ACoAAAiOtsgBQXrJ4HBH8lGTcZ7oweyTB6I6XHE

and some interesting commentary on why this is also a class issue:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/how-sandy-peggie-dr-beth-upton-tribunal-has-revealed-class-divide-at-heart-of-gender-debate-4991403

I’m a lawyer and baffled that someone who doesn’t have a GRC was allowed into a single sex space. They relied only on the conceptual analysis of the junior EDI bod and clearly bypassed HR & legal. Hope Fifes board get a handle on this - as the approve policy & have failed to ensure laws are followed for their employees. They are the ones accountable here and should be named as it was done on their watch.

Being a lawyer you will understand the Equality Act better than I do. From my layperson's understanding, it appears that the PC of GR in the EA has been used by activists from Stonewall, Gendered Intelligence, GLADD etc to 'educate' the high-ups in the NHS that they must effectively allow self-ID, and they have got it written into policy. I've seen lawyers on social media arguing about whether or not the PC of GR legalises self-ID when it comes to use of single sex facilities. The phrase 'proposing to undergo', referring to 'gender reassignment', appears to do a lot of heavy lifting.
ETA GIRES, another key activist organisation in getting gender ideology written into NHS policy. Worth reading RebeccaSaysNo's substack articles about this.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 15/02/2025 16:29

Lovely photo put up by Maya on X.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19
TwoLoonsAndASprout · 15/02/2025 16:30

ifIwerenotanandroid · 15/02/2025 16:29

Lovely photo put up by Maya on X.

I absolutely teared up when I watched/heard the video of that moment. I’m tearing up now thinking of it.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 15/02/2025 16:31

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 15/02/2025 16:24

Mumsnet account twin - I did precisely the same!

Me to. Massive thanks to everyone & particular thanks to @nauticant & @ickky for their sterling work managing the thread & translating TT for us. I couldn't view Dr Upton giving evidence as by the time that I had requested access the IT system was overwhelmed but reading the transcript in real time gave me a good flavour of how the case was going.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 15/02/2025 16:33

PrettyDamnCosmic · 15/02/2025 16:31

Me to. Massive thanks to everyone & particular thanks to @nauticant & @ickky for their sterling work managing the thread & translating TT for us. I couldn't view Dr Upton giving evidence as by the time that I had requested access the IT system was overwhelmed but reading the transcript in real time gave me a good flavour of how the case was going.

Edited

To be honest, I am glad i couldn’t watch - my blood pressure was through the roof just reading. If I had had to listen to him saying the things he was saying, things would have been broken round here.

HesSoBadHesGood · 15/02/2025 16:36

I had such a warm feeling at the end of the tribunal on Friday when NC asked for a forensic examination of BU's phone.

We have always known-- the process is the punishment. So far it has been SP being punished, for months and months. SP was suspended but BU has been fine, surrounded by the NHS ass-patters and women haters. And with BU's questioning at the ET, he clearly enjoyed it so much some posters were suspecting a stiffy inside his Big Girl's Pants (sorry to be crude but there it is). Really, he did seem to enjoy being snarky and evasive with NC and I know I was not the only one to notice. He tried obvious intimidating tactics, more than once, and he glowed as he announced there were photographers outside waiting for a picture of him.

BUT

The process is the punishment for him now as he waits to hear if his phone will be examined. Did he celebrate last night or did he wake up at 3:00 a.m. worrying?

I hear it is his birthday today. Happy Birthday, You're a Man

KnottyAuty · 15/02/2025 16:43

Chrysanthemum5 · 15/02/2025 10:05

I think KS will be quietly moved to another role to avoid that happening.

Or it may be that she is put on “special leave” if the evidence in the bundle demonstrates misconduct. And they have to wait until the judgement to do anything about it?

RethinkingLife · 15/02/2025 16:45

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 15/02/2025 16:10

@Waitwhat23 and @BezMills: I did warn you I would lose you all with that statement!

Team Caramel Wafer. I cannot bear coconut or marshmallow.

If Dundee is to be Terven central in July, maybe local shops could provide sales data for an informal analysis of our preferences.

We should also arrange friendlies for Terven Academicals.

thenosiesttermagant · 15/02/2025 16:45

The discussion upthread about conservatism is interesting I think.

MNetters i think are a very broad church with lots of floating voters and then some one party voters of all stripes. However, the thing that unites most on here is the belief that women as a sex class does not include men and is about the facts of biology, that women need safeguarding in certain circumstances and that child safeguarding is essential. Transactivism rides roughshod over all types of safeguarding as has been seen here.

Safeguarding is about protecting the most vulnerable.

Transactivism is about claiming vulnerability for the most powerful - as this case so perfectly exemplifies. Slight hurty feelings and unevidenced accusations results in immediate suspension for nurse of 30 years. Accusations from a young doctor, not long qualified, not long having lady feelings. You couldn't get a more stark and obvious imbalance of power.

The public access was important because although he sounds like an odious patronising creep in the TT transcript, he was even worse in full audio. Clearly enjoying mansplaining to NC. Clearly enjoying pushing his faux vulnerability narrative. No sign of upset and extreme levels of confidence and condescension.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 15/02/2025 16:48

RethinkingLife · 15/02/2025 16:45

Team Caramel Wafer. I cannot bear coconut or marshmallow.

If Dundee is to be Terven central in July, maybe local shops could provide sales data for an informal analysis of our preferences.

We should also arrange friendlies for Terven Academicals.

Ooo, love a bit of data analysis.

NotAGentleReminder · 15/02/2025 16:50

RethinkingLife · 15/02/2025 16:45

Team Caramel Wafer. I cannot bear coconut or marshmallow.

If Dundee is to be Terven central in July, maybe local shops could provide sales data for an informal analysis of our preferences.

We should also arrange friendlies for Terven Academicals.

Caramel wafer for me, too! I've never eaten a marshmallow teacake, not sure why but just so unappealing!

anyolddinosaur · 15/02/2025 16:50

Dr Searle doesnt seem to have a social media presence and I cant find any photos. She's going to find this a pretty uncomfortable experience.

She's obviously drunk the cool aid but this is more serious for her than for Upton. She was obliged to encourage the datix but pre-judging the outcome breaches two points on good medical practice

  • treating colleagues with respect and help to create an environment that is compassionate, supportive and fair
  • acting with honesty and integrity and being open if things go wrong

and possibly Recognise and work within the limits of your competence. - she was not competent in employment law, although only one HR person seemed to have much idea about that.

I havent yet reported Upton's behaviour or hers to the GMC but I'm thinking of doing so when I've heard what she has to say. Her lawyers need to let her know about Upton being reported.

FarriersGirl · 15/02/2025 16:54

The public access was important because although he sounds like an odious patronising creep in the TT transcript, he was even worse in full audio. Clearly enjoying mansplaining to NC. Clearly enjoying pushing his faux vulnerability narrative. No sign of upset and extreme levels of confidence and condescension.

Absolutely agree @thenosiesttermagant In fact on the second morning where it had got to the issue of consent I got to the point where I had to switch off and take the dog out for some air as I could no longer listen to him it still gives me a massive ICK thinking about it.😱

NotAGentleReminder · 15/02/2025 16:56

thenosiesttermagant · 15/02/2025 16:45

The discussion upthread about conservatism is interesting I think.

MNetters i think are a very broad church with lots of floating voters and then some one party voters of all stripes. However, the thing that unites most on here is the belief that women as a sex class does not include men and is about the facts of biology, that women need safeguarding in certain circumstances and that child safeguarding is essential. Transactivism rides roughshod over all types of safeguarding as has been seen here.

Safeguarding is about protecting the most vulnerable.

Transactivism is about claiming vulnerability for the most powerful - as this case so perfectly exemplifies. Slight hurty feelings and unevidenced accusations results in immediate suspension for nurse of 30 years. Accusations from a young doctor, not long qualified, not long having lady feelings. You couldn't get a more stark and obvious imbalance of power.

The public access was important because although he sounds like an odious patronising creep in the TT transcript, he was even worse in full audio. Clearly enjoying mansplaining to NC. Clearly enjoying pushing his faux vulnerability narrative. No sign of upset and extreme levels of confidence and condescension.

Yes, the reason why people of many different political leanings can agree on 'women as a sex class does not include men' is because it's the truth, not an opinion or belief. People who get upset and confused that they agree when someone utterly odious says it need to remember that.

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