NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

It is still very much in use and is in fact how Grayson Perry refers yo himself.
TRAs have tried to ban it for obvious reasons.

Someone asked upthread if the investigation by Fife came to a conclusion. I think it did and found Sandie had harassed DU, hence the headlines in the early days of the tribunal. In the absence of a bundle, it has been very difficult to construct an accurate time line. We’ve had similar difficulties following other tribunals, and something that helped was the claimant publishing their statement, which usually gives a chronological account. I know Scottish law is different, but if it were possible, it would be so helpful.

Shocked emoji!
Bungle was the bear?!?
Did he identify as a hippo?

The hippo was George!

Crown Court! Yes! (That's why we enjoy these cases so much and the young folks can't be bothered to follow them!)

And of course, we were off once with measles, once with mumps, once with German measles, besides chickenpox and all the other crud kids get now. It's heartbreaking to see antivaxxers trying to take us back there.

Yes - transsexualism and transvestitism have been lumped together as “transgender” now. The hate crime bill that was last year’s Scottish embarrassment actually expressly protected cross dressing.

The job purpose for Fife’s DEI role was short and clear and required an expert to lead on the legislation - see below. This got diluted and lost in the Person Specification.

Job Purpose
“The post holder will lead* *on mainstreaming the organisation’s approach to equality and human rights.

The post holder is responsible for ensuring the Board is sighted on the legislative requirements of the Equality and Human Rights agenda and is responsible for leading on the delivery of these agendas.

The post-holder will be a subject matter expert and lead on the interpretation of and compliance with the Equality Act 2010, the Equality Act 2010 (Specific Duties) (Scotland) Regulations 2012 and the Human Rights Act 1998.”

As I recall that's not quite what happened - SP was asked about the interactions with Upton in the changing room. The NHS Fife harassment policy was then read out. SP was asked if her behaviour was harassment based on those guidelines, and said yes.

The 'investigation' that may or may not have happened doesn't seem to have concluded anything.

Trying to keep up while also working and having other 'stuff' that couldn't be ignored completely for the duration I have missed chunks.
In my head the chromosome CR conversion that appears to be SPs major crime probably when something like this

SP: urm this is the women's CR could you leave please

DrU: I am a woman

SP: it's for females

DrU: I am a female

SP: Biological females

DrU: well you see I'm not a robot and I am female (coz I sez so) so I am a biological female.

SP: an actual woman urrmmm you know with XX chromosomes, do you have XX chromosomes?

DrU: how very dare you? I'm off to tell teacher.

Is this a fairly accurate assumption of how it happened?
If not can anyone give me a rough time of when both SP and DU gave their versions so I can check them out on TT.

I am an appalled lurker. I was going to email the GMC today (not my usual behaviour) to ask about how to get a female doctor following issues highlighted in ET. I had thought this was at odds with NHS Charter which says you can request female staff.

i was going to c&p the relevant bit from the NHS website to say you can request a female HCP. However now that I have skim read, I can’t see that in the charter any more. I think it used to be. There were individual services supplying info on their provision but I couldn’t find a blanket NHS one.

Does anyone know was it always like this or has it changed?
TIA

Sandie says she didnt mention chromosomes and did say she mentioned prisons. I believe her.

That sounds plausible, but I think Sandie says she didn't mention chromosomes at all. Tbh she was probably so upset it wouldn't surprise me if she had and later didn't remember, and he is so prone to cross rumination that it wouldn't surprise me if he had created a false memory of her doing so, before we even get to the idea that one of them isn't telling the truth. It's a real pity nobody asked Sandie promptly for her version, though.

But so what if she DID mention chromosomes?

I don't get why that is a hate word all of a sudden.

Actually I do, it instantly renders their pathetic arguments redundant and they don't like that.

AHH thanks I believe her but I can totally understand how faced with all language options that have traditionally been understood to exclude men now being repurposed to include them someone could end up asking such an
question. If you take 'she' and 'her' and 'woman' and 'female' and 'biological' what are we left with?

It’s probably hate in his eyes because it shows she understands biological sex better than he does, despite her only being a nurse.

I think even if some proof suddenly turned up that SP definitely had harassed Upton in the CR, Fife would still be in the drink because of the way they handled the investigation, so what happened may not actually be that important now.

I don't think the TRAs found that a problem. I think they thought 'yes that's a real gotcha moment, case closed'. Because in their heads that is true so they think Upton got one over on NC.

I imagine some like whittle and white understand it was not gold but the majority of TRAs are so wrapped in their delusion they can't see what others see

We seem to have arrived in a world where the accurate use of medical terminology can be considered harassment.

Ah but back in the 70's tv had 3 channels and only a few hours of kids tv. Don't you remember being off sick watching Rainbows and then straight on to Crown Court. How did we survive!

👆 This! I’m a few years older than NC but I can still summon the ‘Rainbows’ theme tune to mind instantly. And the Janacek ‘Sinfonietta’ from ‘Crown Court’ …

I had not seen the Beyonce pastiche of the Levi's ad before. The substitution of a sack of diamonds for the originals sack of rocks was pure genius.

I don't know why NC didn't press this point. Bringing things back to reality as she so deftly did on the clothes point, the Dr is a man in woman's clothing. No surgery, no GRC to even simulate being a woman.
I was fearful of getting censured on this point, but he is a Transvestite by definition - the point is well made by others, but Transgenderism is nothing but a shield for bullying and imposing terms and language to justify the opposing sides delusions.
Personally I am not opposed to androgyny, but as soon as it extends to psychotic delusion, misrepresentation and endangering women, then it is time to speak out.

If I was Kate Searle I would be taking my own legal advice very promptly. That advice might be that her best course of action is to admit her behaviour was wrong, she was following official guidance and she will be retraining. Be interesting to see if the court does allow her to be added as a respondent and if so whether she allows JR to represent her.

There is only one other way to justify it and that is going down the "knew Sandie held bigoted views" line - and that isnt going to wash unless her employer can show it affected her behaviour at work. SD already said no to that. Upton's word is not, and his notes are not, looking reliable.

https://technicallyhuman.substack.com/p/a-courtroom-drama

If DU was a robot…

https://www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/nhs-constitution-review-response-final_pdf-107514340.pdf
GMC concerned about the conflict of rights of transgender doctors and patient requests for same sex care here, and need some help with figuring out what words mean.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/nhs-constitution-plans-to-strengthen-privacy-dignity-and-safety