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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 11:43

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

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11
RedToothBrush · 14/02/2025 12:43

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 12:37

ED as the senior person should automatically be preempting this by saying NO to Upton

Did I read somewhere she was only a few weeks into post?

Might it be possible that the previous incumbent saw the bus coming and decided instead to call a TAAAXXXXIIIII?

She should have been capable of taking on the level of this job from Day 1.

What if there had been a major, actual safeguarding issue involving a patient on Day 1?

Its the type of role where you have to be able to fly straight away because it has that level of responsibility.

Her appointment raises questions over recruitment and training across the board. So questions for higher up the food chain.

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:43

NC SHe wasnt a risk tho

ED More staff in the day so easier to monitor and make sure no interactions w Beth by separating. And make sure SP fine

NC But no reason to doubt she cldnt do job professionally

Were offering her support to get back to work

NC SHe didnt want support,

Boiledbeetle · 14/02/2025 12:43

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:42

NC So wasnt about support but feeling she'd do something wrong

ED We wanted her to be safe at work after 8 wks absence

NC Did u see the letter at the time?

ED Dont think so

NC are u aware it's first time she was made aware of poss patient issues

ED I dont know about it

That really is awful.

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 12:43

snickersbarchild · 14/02/2025 12:41

Exactly. I was able to observe earlier on in the week, and her face does not show much emotion at all. At one point I thought she looked rather flushed when questioning DU, but others said it was possible the heating was causing it. She is one cool cucumber.

On Tuesday after the respondents and their entourage filed out, I saw her crack a smile. She looked cheerful :)

Justabaker · 14/02/2025 12:44

CriticalCondition · 14/02/2025 12:39

Does anyone know if DU is at the tribunal today? Or any members of the Wall of Sad?

Or, most importantly, what has happened to the Sad Chairs behind the witness box? Have they detransitioned back to the clerks' office where several people have been forced to hotdesk for a week during DUs evidence? Or maybe that should be hotchair.

No, neither he nor his supporters have appeared since his evidence was completed.

Bluebootsgreenboots · 14/02/2025 12:44

Also, when exactly was SP notified about allegations re patient safety? Apols for Qs but I can only go online at break time!

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:44

but her old job back and shift

ED There were concerns re leaving cubicle and to offer support.

NC She needed watching?

She shld be supported back to work

NC With hindsight SP had approached you twice, she'd not had help and had said she's raise it. Were worried

SqueakyDinosaur · 14/02/2025 12:44

A couple of links for the NC fans:

Audio interview with Michael Foran: https://x.com/legalfeminist/status/1803823613038014892

Interview with the Times in May 2024, after the Rachel Meade case: https://archive.is/6kJpZ

Interview about putting together legal bundles (also mentions that her mother was at Bletchley Park during the war!) https://www.buzzsprout.com/442960/episodes/16183173

x.com

https://x.com/legalfeminist/status/1803823613038014892

PepeParapluie · 14/02/2025 12:44

More total nonsense today I see. The investigation from yesterday seems to have stopped identifying as an investigation today.

Really heartwarming to see the welcome for Sandie outside court, I hope she’s feeling buoyed by the public support at what must be such a hard time.

Also loving the posts from the newly peaked or more confident lurkers! Welcome!

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:44

It was either support or it was supervision. Which?

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 12:45

CriticalCondition · 14/02/2025 12:39

Does anyone know if DU is at the tribunal today? Or any members of the Wall of Sad?

Or, most importantly, what has happened to the Sad Chairs behind the witness box? Have they detransitioned back to the clerks' office where several people have been forced to hotdesk for a week during DUs evidence? Or maybe that should be hotchair.

LOLOLOL

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:46

ED Long Q. Thought the risks small as rarely in CR at same time and thought ppl wld be professional. If I was uncomfortable in CR I'd remove myself

JR Sl confusing Q so to suggest SP had approached ED twice is wrong

NC We differ on this. There'd beeen 2 interactions

Boiledbeetle · 14/02/2025 12:47

Bluebootsgreenboots · 14/02/2025 12:44

Also, when exactly was SP notified about allegations re patient safety? Apols for Qs but I can only go online at break time!

ickky · Today 12:42
NC So wasnt about support but feeling she'd do something wrong
ED We wanted her to be safe at work after 8 wks absence
NC Did u see the letter at the time?
ED Dont think so
NC are u aware it's first time she was made aware of poss patient issues
ED I dont know about it

Eta sorry meant to add, when discussing her return to work after Beth had gone I think

MarieDeGournay · 14/02/2025 12:47

If I was uncomfortable in CR I'd remove myself
but she doesn't apply this to DrU, just to SP😡

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 14/02/2025 12:47

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 12:43

On Tuesday after the respondents and their entourage filed out, I saw her crack a smile. She looked cheerful :)

I hope she doesn't normally look stern. Looking stern is hanging suspension offence.

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:47

SP did remove herself as was noted down by DU twice FFS

He would have made a note about ED too if she had removed herself.

GailBlancheViola · 14/02/2025 12:47

ED Long Q. Thought the risks small as rarely in CR at same time and thought ppl wld be professional. If I was uncomfortable in CR I'd remove myself

Which is exactly what SP did but that was classed as wrong by Upton and brought up in his claim against her as bullying and harassment.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 14/02/2025 12:48

NebulousDeadline · 14/02/2025 12:40

I am not a nurse, how much "additional supervision" is actually possible in A&E? What would it look like?

If taken seriously it would prevent her doing her job, and make her effectively supernumerary. It would be intolerable. If it were nominal and meaningless it would merely be insulting.

littlbrowndog · 14/02/2025 12:48

GailBlancheViola · 14/02/2025 12:47

ED Long Q. Thought the risks small as rarely in CR at same time and thought ppl wld be professional. If I was uncomfortable in CR I'd remove myself

Which is exactly what SP did but that was classed as wrong by Upton and brought up in his claim against her as bullying and harassment.

Yep

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:48

NC Trust put u in a diff position and a recipe for disaster

ED Only SP complained and I cldnt exclude Beth from the CR

NC SP told u she'd say something and y'd have thought saying No to Beth wldnt go well

ED I thought cld be a profess convo. have found Beth v persoanable

MarieDeGournay · 14/02/2025 12:48

Is it possible that 'supervision' in this context is like supervision in social work, i.e. support and advice rather than keeping an eye on how you do your job?

swearsbymoonlight · 14/02/2025 12:48

I've been on a course all week so I've missed so much ! When did NC question Dr U please? is it on this thread or the previous? Thank

serendipitea · 14/02/2025 12:49

There was an aspect of the Isla Bryson story which is very relevant though, more than prison: didn't he join a beauty college, and fellow students had to strip to be recipients of some treatments? And some said they were uncomfortable but couldn't say anything?

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2025 12:49

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:43

NC SHe wasnt a risk tho

ED More staff in the day so easier to monitor and make sure no interactions w Beth by separating. And make sure SP fine

NC But no reason to doubt she cldnt do job professionally

Were offering her support to get back to work

NC SHe didnt want support,

'Support'

If she took compulsory support to help her comply, she would be allowed back to work.

Look at that authoritarianism. Right There.

IDasIX · 14/02/2025 12:49

Bluebootsgreenboots · 14/02/2025 12:38

Briefly de lurking to say thanks to all, and to ask for a reminder on who exactly IB is, ED says she asked IB for clarity on policy from IB. Is it the DEI lead? (I know it's not Isla Bryson, although that's what I see with those initials - definitely a sign of spending too much time in the FWR corner of Mumsnet!)

Isla Bumba is the DEI person who gave ED the advice.

LinkedIn suggests she was c.25yo and months into role at the time with no obvious b/ground in HR or law

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