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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 11:43

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
PoorMisgenderedPeteThePlumber · 14/02/2025 17:03
Suspense Anticipation GIF

Oh wow, I heard suspenseful music playing in my head re the phone history search request!!!

Tbh, I've probably got some very random and dodgy stuff on my phone in the metadata. All because I keep googling things I see on Mumsnet 😂

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 17:03

GCITC · 14/02/2025 15:53

Is anyone else looking at hotels in Dundee for July?

might be time to visit the long lost relatives 😂

BabaYagasHouse · 14/02/2025 17:03

HalfWomanHalfHobnob · 14/02/2025 14:36

I think it's ED (senior nurse) who's a band 8?

Ah OK.
I was confused by that too.
Thought EDI staff getting paid more than nurses!

Projectme · 14/02/2025 17:04

NotLikeACourt · 14/02/2025 15:48

GRA Petition has gone from 3567 > 4365 over the course of day
Google: Fully Repeal the Gender Recognition Act
**

4473 now. Just signed it 🙌

delvan · 14/02/2025 17:05

You know what, the basics are what I need to get right in my head about what is and isn't GI legal. The amount of verbiage and documentation involved in GI law and policy is quite overwhelming for an amateur like me and possibly many others too. Just thought I'd verbalise it, thinking out loud.

But what I really would like to know is where is DU now? Is he on sick leave or filling his propofol syringe in anaesthetics as we speak.

If he is in the Vic in Fife right now, where is he changing his scrubs, and is there any problem anymore, or have the bio females accepted him, or maybe they are scared not to. I dunno, but wondered.

sweetsardineface · 14/02/2025 17:07

Adding my sincere thanks. Wish I could buy you a drink or several.
And @Jamieandhismagictorch what a delight to hear from you. You have no idea how many times I cheered when I read your comments. Always thought you had the best name too. Belated 👏🏼 👏🏼 👏🏼

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 17:07

YourWiseBee · 14/02/2025 16:00

Fascinating battle on Reddit. The TRAs don’t want case discussed at all (or only favourable articles). They are getting posts removed, they are blocking people from posting so it’s an echo chamber etc and spreading misinformation after misinformation. I suspect they might win as they still have control of the main UK forums but don’t think this battle would have happened a year ago.

Has noone over their heard of WORIADS?
Oh probably not or the TRA extremist stuff would have been removed

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 17:08

delvan · 14/02/2025 17:05

You know what, the basics are what I need to get right in my head about what is and isn't GI legal. The amount of verbiage and documentation involved in GI law and policy is quite overwhelming for an amateur like me and possibly many others too. Just thought I'd verbalise it, thinking out loud.

But what I really would like to know is where is DU now? Is he on sick leave or filling his propofol syringe in anaesthetics as we speak.

If he is in the Vic in Fife right now, where is he changing his scrubs, and is there any problem anymore, or have the bio females accepted him, or maybe they are scared not to. I dunno, but wondered.

I shuddered at "propofol" 😬

Waitwhat23 · 14/02/2025 17:11

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 16:35

Maybe we could organise a mumsnetter conference across the road at the Malmaison Dundee with live TT threads on a big screen plus snacks?

I was thinking the same.

Hmmmm........

CheekySnake · 14/02/2025 17:13

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 17:01

Bet he is wishing he had just disclosed the other items. The phone notes could open up a big flaming pile of doo doo. He was taking notes from the get-go and couldn't have known who he would use them against. Which means there is a very high chance that he wrote notes about his other colleagues - imagine finding out after all this and everything that has come out, that you were complicit in a travesty - but that with a small difference in the turn of events that it would have been you in SP's place... uncomfortable might be the feeling? But don't worry - be kind!

This is my feeling - the early monitoring of SP's changing room use suggests he was looking for an uppity woman from day 1. He cannot have known that would be SP at that point.

Jamieandhismagictorch · 14/02/2025 17:15

Thanks you everyone who found my input useful in the past. Back then I had an obsessional need to TELL people what was going on and how fecking MAD it was and is. It takes women like Sandie going through this shitshow to show people. I will now dereg. again because I have very little self control, but you women are fantastic I shall be here lurking😚

GCITC · 14/02/2025 17:15

Waitwhat23 · 14/02/2025 17:11

I was thinking the same.

Hmmmm........

I've booked a room close by for 5 nights.

WandaSiri · 14/02/2025 17:17

Merrymouse · 14/02/2025 16:57

But isn't that at the discretion of the service provider? It's a may, not a must situation?

However, Isn't there a current case in Brighton where a woman is claiming that provision is discriminatory because there are no single sex rape crisis services?

The point is that there is no right for males with a GRC to access the women's services above (where women's human rights are engaged), but if the provision for women is inadequate or nonexistent by virtue of not being genuinely single sex, that is indirect discrimination and direct discrimination on the grounds of Sex at the very least. The provider has no defence if they allow males to access these - they can't say they are doing it in order not to discriminate unlawfully because they can discriminate lawfully. They are choosing to discriminate unlawfully against women, rather than discriminate lawfully against male people.

The problem is that in practice it is expensive and stressful to bring a case to Tribunal, so providers get away with it.

Regarding Sarah Summers' case about RCC single sex provision, I don't see how she can lose (though IANAL).

Arran2024 · 14/02/2025 17:17

Jerabilis · 14/02/2025 16:40

What happens between now and the end of the tribunal if a female patient asks for a female doctor and Dr Upton takes himself to treat her? Would GMC not have to take some responsibility or would it be on the hospital for allowing it to happen?

Hasn't Upton moved to anaesthetics? I don't know if that's better or worse...

Tootsweets23 · 14/02/2025 17:17

What a fine old mess. Can't help but wonder that DU didn't think through the consequences. He's said a whole load of anti scientific nonsense plus that he'd do intimate exams on female patients without consent. So when he has a GMC hearing he either has to double down and therefore run the risk of being sanctioned by the GMC, or say oh no that was bollocks and therefore in contempt of the tribunal. Slow hand clap. Although maybe the attention and drama makes it all worthwhile?

RethinkingLife · 14/02/2025 17:18

Boswelltoday

Day 10 Afternoon Session - Peggie v NHS Fife & Dr Upton
NHS Fife’s Leadership Runs Out of Road – Tribunal Exposes Institutional Failure
As the tribunal resumed after lunch, the pressure only mounted on NHS Fife’s leadership. The morning’s session had already exposed the institutional cowardice at play, but as the panel and judge pressed further, it became clear just how deep the rot runs. Esther Davidson’s evasions and contradictions continued, but now under the scrutiny of the tribunal panel members, who were clearly becoming less patient with the incoherent justifications and lack of documentation.

The questioning started with basic procedural failures, with Davidson admitting that there was no formal documentation for key decisions, despite suspension being one of the most serious actions an employer can take. Even the judge seemed exasperated, pointing out that, as a senior leader, it was not unreasonable to expect her to keep notes of critical decisions.

But, as with everything in this case, proper process only seemed to apply when it was working against Sandy Peggie, not in her favour. When asked directly, Davidson confirmed that NHS Fife had decided from the start that Dr Upton had an unquestionable right to the female changing room, based solely on advice from Isla Bumba, the Equality and Diversity lead. There had been no meaningful discussion about how this would impact female staff, nor had any consideration been given to practical solutions. Instead, the entire responsibility was placed on Peggie to tolerate the situation, while management washed its hands of any responsibility.

The tribunal panel then turned to another key issue—whether anyone in NHS Fife’s leadership had actually taken the time to investigate what had happened, rather than just assuming Peggie was the problem. It quickly became apparent that the decision to suspend her had been based on assumptions, vague accusations, and hearsay, rather than any proper review of the facts. Davidson could not even remember when she had first seen the formal complaint, and had no idea whether key witnesses had even been spoken to before action was taken against Peggie.

The question of fairness then took centre stage, with the tribunal panel asking why senior charge nurses had not been informed earlier that Peggie had serious concerns. Davidson’s response was another exercise in excuse-making, insisting that she had “passed it on” in an informal manner. Yet, despite being a senior leader responsible for ensuring fair treatment, she had made no effort to confirm that Peggie was properly informed or supported.

The reality is simple: no one in NHS Fife’s management structure wanted to deal with the fallout of telling a male doctor he could not use a female space, so they made Peggie the problem instead.

Then came one of the most revealing moments of the day. The tribunal judge questioned Davidson directly on whether the concerns about Peggie’s conduct were serious enough to justify suspension. Davidson was forced to admit that the guidance she had received from senior leadership was that suspension was only justified if patient care was compromised. But when pushed, she could provide no evidence that patient care had ever been put at risk. Yet again, the justification for punishing Peggie fell apart under scrutiny.

Finally, the afternoon session turned to NHS Fife’s handling of key evidence and procedural delays, with lawyers from both sides locking horns over document requests, forensic examinations of Dr Upton’s phone, and the sheer mess of missing records. It became increasingly obvious that NHS Fife’s leadership had either failed to keep track of critical evidence or was deliberately obstructing its release. The tribunal judge ordered additional submissions and scheduling adjustments, as the case dragged further into July.

By the end of the day, one thing was clear: this is no longer just about a single employment dispute—it is about a systemic failure of leadership. The senior executives and board of NHS Fife have spent months dodging accountability, hoping that Peggie would simply disappear under the weight of bureaucracy and process. But now, with their own managers struggling to explain their decisions, the tribunal is running out of patience. There is no amount of policy jargon, procedural excuses, or activist talking points that can hide the truth forever—and when that truth fully emerges, it will land squarely at the feet of NHS Fife’s leadership.

Thank you all for following along—it's been fun, hasn’t it? We truly appreciate all the engagement, support, and sharp-eyed commentary throughout this tribunal. Your interest and commitment to holding institutions to account make all the difference. We’ll do our very best to be back in July when the hearings resume, and rest assured, we’ll be keeping a close watch on every twist and turn. Until then, take care, and we’ll see you soon! [My paragraphs and line breaks.]

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1890439300136775891

x.com

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1890439300136775891

Hermyknee · 14/02/2025 17:18

Newtt · 14/02/2025 16:06

of course not.

It will have been deleted, boiled in bleach and dropped in the sea...

Well he used it a couple of days ago to retrieve some BMA stuff he’d forgotten about didn’t he?

BrightOrangeDahlias · 14/02/2025 17:18

Boiledbeetle · 14/02/2025 12:22

To all the lurkers

👋 ❤

👋 thank you to you all for shining a light on this batshittery.

< returns to lurkdom >

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 17:19

thenosiesttermagant · 14/02/2025 16:21

I'd get on it because there won't be soon.

Edited to add - one good thing about the continuation is that women who want single sex spaces and not to have their speech compelled can come en masse to observe in person. I hope they have a big courtroom.

Edited

What coach to book on the train up from KX?

Binglebong · 14/02/2025 17:20

As usual I've not been able to keep track. Am I tight in thinking they've demanded a look at Dr U's phone? When will they take it? Will he have an opportunity to remove stuff first?

Also pretty please can someone explain the missing patient business. And anything else I missed today (or any other time that i may have missed something important).

Hermyknee · 14/02/2025 17:20

RethinkingLife · 14/02/2025 17:18

Boswelltoday

Day 10 Afternoon Session - Peggie v NHS Fife & Dr Upton
NHS Fife’s Leadership Runs Out of Road – Tribunal Exposes Institutional Failure
As the tribunal resumed after lunch, the pressure only mounted on NHS Fife’s leadership. The morning’s session had already exposed the institutional cowardice at play, but as the panel and judge pressed further, it became clear just how deep the rot runs. Esther Davidson’s evasions and contradictions continued, but now under the scrutiny of the tribunal panel members, who were clearly becoming less patient with the incoherent justifications and lack of documentation.

The questioning started with basic procedural failures, with Davidson admitting that there was no formal documentation for key decisions, despite suspension being one of the most serious actions an employer can take. Even the judge seemed exasperated, pointing out that, as a senior leader, it was not unreasonable to expect her to keep notes of critical decisions.

But, as with everything in this case, proper process only seemed to apply when it was working against Sandy Peggie, not in her favour. When asked directly, Davidson confirmed that NHS Fife had decided from the start that Dr Upton had an unquestionable right to the female changing room, based solely on advice from Isla Bumba, the Equality and Diversity lead. There had been no meaningful discussion about how this would impact female staff, nor had any consideration been given to practical solutions. Instead, the entire responsibility was placed on Peggie to tolerate the situation, while management washed its hands of any responsibility.

The tribunal panel then turned to another key issue—whether anyone in NHS Fife’s leadership had actually taken the time to investigate what had happened, rather than just assuming Peggie was the problem. It quickly became apparent that the decision to suspend her had been based on assumptions, vague accusations, and hearsay, rather than any proper review of the facts. Davidson could not even remember when she had first seen the formal complaint, and had no idea whether key witnesses had even been spoken to before action was taken against Peggie.

The question of fairness then took centre stage, with the tribunal panel asking why senior charge nurses had not been informed earlier that Peggie had serious concerns. Davidson’s response was another exercise in excuse-making, insisting that she had “passed it on” in an informal manner. Yet, despite being a senior leader responsible for ensuring fair treatment, she had made no effort to confirm that Peggie was properly informed or supported.

The reality is simple: no one in NHS Fife’s management structure wanted to deal with the fallout of telling a male doctor he could not use a female space, so they made Peggie the problem instead.

Then came one of the most revealing moments of the day. The tribunal judge questioned Davidson directly on whether the concerns about Peggie’s conduct were serious enough to justify suspension. Davidson was forced to admit that the guidance she had received from senior leadership was that suspension was only justified if patient care was compromised. But when pushed, she could provide no evidence that patient care had ever been put at risk. Yet again, the justification for punishing Peggie fell apart under scrutiny.

Finally, the afternoon session turned to NHS Fife’s handling of key evidence and procedural delays, with lawyers from both sides locking horns over document requests, forensic examinations of Dr Upton’s phone, and the sheer mess of missing records. It became increasingly obvious that NHS Fife’s leadership had either failed to keep track of critical evidence or was deliberately obstructing its release. The tribunal judge ordered additional submissions and scheduling adjustments, as the case dragged further into July.

By the end of the day, one thing was clear: this is no longer just about a single employment dispute—it is about a systemic failure of leadership. The senior executives and board of NHS Fife have spent months dodging accountability, hoping that Peggie would simply disappear under the weight of bureaucracy and process. But now, with their own managers struggling to explain their decisions, the tribunal is running out of patience. There is no amount of policy jargon, procedural excuses, or activist talking points that can hide the truth forever—and when that truth fully emerges, it will land squarely at the feet of NHS Fife’s leadership.

Thank you all for following along—it's been fun, hasn’t it? We truly appreciate all the engagement, support, and sharp-eyed commentary throughout this tribunal. Your interest and commitment to holding institutions to account make all the difference. We’ll do our very best to be back in July when the hearings resume, and rest assured, we’ll be keeping a close watch on every twist and turn. Until then, take care, and we’ll see you soon! [My paragraphs and line breaks.]

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1890439300136775891

Edited

Why do I read this Boswell poster’s posts like the beginning of a Bridgerton episode?!

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 17:21

Honestly I don't know how all you lurkers can keep quiet throughout this shitshow. I admire your restraint and I feel like an utter gobshite 😂

JasmineAllen · 14/02/2025 17:21

BabaYagasHouse · 14/02/2025 17:01

This sounds mad!
Is this part of what's going wrong with NHS, finacially?

(I'm not very clued up on this so apologies of off the mark)

IMO.
I haven't nursed for over 20 years but when I did it was definitely a case of 'too many chiefs, not enough indians'.
Apologies if that saying is now a hate crime.

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