NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

Thank you all for keeping me up to speed since public access was withdrawn. Hopefully the delay will only strengthen SPs case although I'm sure the added delay will be a added pressure.

I'm also a long time FWR lurker, but I have never planned my week around a (series of) thread(s) before. Thank you all so much for all the updates, commentary, links and general support. The whole display has been phenomenal, in a good way and in a bad way.

As we say round these parts: Goanyerselhen!

I've just had a really blah acknowledgement from GMC, saying they can't comment about concerns raised, until Tribunal has reached it's decision....., even though concerns raised are nothing to do with the outcome of the tribunal

Thank you for contacting the GMC with your concerns about Dr Upton.

We are aware of the ongoing employment tribunal in which Dr Upton is giving evidence. As you may appreciate, it would be inappropriate for us to comment whilst the Tribunal is considering the evidence and reaching its decision.

Although she has said she won't, i think Sandie should use some of the crowd funder for taking her family on a well deserved holiday. They deserve a break before round two.

War is Peace
Man is Woman
Investigation is not investigation
Stasi like monitoring of thought crime is support.

Everything identifies as that which it emphatically is NOT.

She changed other answers between today and yesterday. Asking questions twice gives a measure of reliability of answers

I have to say, my phone's fine cos I'm actually as boring as hell, but there'd be a lot of people out there who would shit a brick at their phone being analysed.

But I well understand, this empathy thing and the slippery slope argument over privacy and dignity. It's not for anything relating to a specific case at hand but this is a fairly nuclear request.

Think of all those people having illicit affairs. Or sexting... Or asking your mate for some recreational drugs... None of which would be relevant of course. But still embarrassing.

However, dubious posting on social media which reveal your political opinions apparently is relevant to Sandie's suspension, so perhaps we should consider stuff like that potentially being relevant.

Or just think of the cringe knowing someone else has seen your search history on Google...

Imagine...

I've returned to work (as a clinician) after a 5 month absence in the recent past. I got a phased return, but no one felt the need to supervise my "interactions with patients and colleagues"!

I wonder why not? Was it because I wasn't working with an extra-special man?

I'm leaving the thread now to return to real life in the form of unwashed dishes and unfolded laundry. 😕

As I leave.. anyone want to join WearyAuldWumman and me in a few lines of -

🎶Oh, the Rose of Allendale
Sweet Rose of Allendale
One maiden's form withstood the storm
'Twas the Rose of Allendale

n honour of Sandie✊i

I'd get on it because there won't be soon.

Edited to add - one good thing about the continuation is that women who want single sex spaces and not to have their speech compelled can come en masse to observe in person. I hope they have a big courtroom.

True. But then don't engineer a situation in which you find yourself a respondent in a tribunal and rely on phone evidence for your statement.

You reap what you sow.

JoMarsh - just wanted to unlurk to thank you for the brilliant informative comments you made in The Times back in the day! So pleased to see you are around here. I don't subscribe to The Times any more, after the price hike, but I was incensed when pseudonyms were forbidden.
This case is a real eye opener!

Hard disagree.

Management are there to do, well managing.

And that involves responsibility taking.

Otherwise what in the heck is the point in ED and what is she paid to do?

Sit there like a nodding dog, agreeing with Upton?

Her job is to say no if appropriate. Her job is to look out for and protect ALL staff.

Others she's been paid a lot to be Upton's personal bodyguard.

My phone is fine except for biological realism. Which as we know is the worst sin ever, worse than indecent exposure, worse than voyeurism, worse than coercive control and compelled speech, worse than sterilising children. THE WORST.

Yay!
Wonderful to hear from you. Your voice was so important btl - and effective as the readers are now fully informed and peaked.

I completely accept why you disagree, I guess I come from a point where I wonder how the hell she is in that role - which is a decision that was made by others.

I agree she needs to protect all people, but having looked at her LI and background there's been some huge jumps towards that position and we already know from ED that there have been instances where training has not been given.

I still think we need to wait to hear her evidence properly before she gets flamed.

Conxis I have seen similar policies, although I don't know if they would be legally, or practically enforceable.

However with regard to suspensions, I have been involved in a small number of disciplinaries, where staff have been briefly suspended whilst their IT is checked. It probably isn't relevant to frontline A&E staff who aren't usually issued with personal NHS IT equipment, but it is a neutral act and can be done rapidly if required. It doesn't always reflect the serious of allegations being investigated and I am very confused by ED's evidence around suspension in Fife.

from me too @Jamieandhismagictorch (I kept trying to @ you as Jo March before the penny dropped!) I was a big admirer of your posts for The Times and I learned a hell of a lot from you - and I'm sure I'm not the only one

Just wanted to add my thanks to nauticant and ickky , and to all the intelligent, articulate and engaged women in here. And wishing Sandie good luck and strength.

I am mostly a lurker but peaked back in 2019 after encountering my first gender-neutral toilet. I took to the web to find out what fresh hell those were and that took me back to Mumsnet - where I had already been for years! (if mostly lurking)

I've had similar - I am meeting a barrister friend over the weekend for a little walk and talk.

AND A VERY LARGE GIN + TONIC.

ED doesn't seem to like SP, and I wonder if ED and her ilk look down a bit on SP, the no nonsense working class nurse that stays in Trump Hotels. So when DU complained, they were more inclined to side with him because they are so progressive and enlightened, not like the old bigot SP who doesn't t believe TWAW.

The GMC cannot just shelve there responsibilities to patient safety for months and months when issues and concerns are raised - they can investigate independently on what has been claimed about patient safety.

😚

The request for the phone gives another wonderful opportunity for DU's performative I'm so useless my wife has to help me act.