NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

There's also the fact that the Vic is the only hospital in Fife which covers most specialities.

The other main hospital - Queen Margaret - was downgraded some years ago. (For example, QM had a maternity ward which was closed straight after the hospital opened. It's only ever had one mother and baby, when weather made it impossible for the ambulance to get from Dunfermline to Kirkcaldy.) You only stay there overnight if you've had a day op and have no one at home to be with you following a GA.

The exception would be the geriatric wards.

Other hospitals in Fife are only cottage hospitals.

I think this is fair from the GMC. I sit on conduct panels for another regulatory body and we only hear cases after judicial and internal disciplinary processes are completed.

For all the talk of breaking down gender roles and whatnot, it's astonishing (not) how quickly a woman who womans wrong (aka is stern and/or says no to a man) is chastised and excluded by the very people who think gender is wibbly wobbly.

I've done this too - long time lurker, my whole week has been fitted around these threads. Thank you to nauticant and ikky for managing it all. It's been moving so fast!!

It's all been so gobsmacking but I'm glad to see Sandie finally seeing all the support she has had.

I do fancy a trip to Dundee in July.

It may not have arisen much before if DU was in a community role rg psychiatry, where doctors wear ordinary clothes instead of scrubs. ED said that DU was known to them previously as a visiting doctor for mh patients in the ED. So it may be that DU had used female toilets but not needed to change clothes or be in the CR at a time when others were changing. I am just speculating but that may be part of why DU was calling the toilet the 'bathroom'. It conveniently conflates the separate issues.

For anyone mystified by SP's OH referral for support. Obviously this wasn't for her welfare, but will have enabled NHS Fife to tick the box confirming they had offered her support for her mental health. Hey, they might even have offered her an online course or virtual counselling if she was lucky.

Adding my thanks 😊

When DU says he's not a computer person, he probably means he isn't made of electronics and circuit boards.

I'd be willing to bet that ED didn't announce to the female (ofck) staff about a tw using their CR because she likely guessed there would be objections and she didn't want to cross that bridge. She probably hoped, and mostly correctly, that if it was a fait accompli it would be harder for individuals to complain. Given a heads up the female staff would have been able to organise themselves. This is regardless of her own beliefs, if she's twaw or just wanted an easy life the result is the same. That's why SP was hustled out so quickly, as pps have posted, and DU himself admitted, they didn't want other women to have an opportunity to come forward.

Of course ED is all twaw because that's the least worse option with regards to her status with the dominant ideology at work. It makes her come across as an idiot in the ET and to the public, but she'll be hoping that will be something she can put in the past. And 'be kind' is better than self serving, looking for an easy life.

Good at her job tho - in the face of her clients' appalling witnesses, terrible paper trail and indefensible actions - she's still having a go. I'm liking the professionalism. In most cases when she has objected it's a good alert to when someone is about to reveal something that's not good for the NHS/DU case!

I'm imagining the T-shirt right now - a llama driving a bus, reversing into a bin on fire?

This. i haven't yet complained to them but i will. If anyone has any advice on the key things to cover, i'd be grateful.

The consent issue plus potential for harm to patients if DU ignores sex are the biggest issues, right? Plus saying stuff that is at variance with what is taught as evidenced fact in IGCSE / A-level biology (and university degrees when i did them, though i'm wondering if they're full of unevidenced woo now).

I quoted you to re post, but the thread was moving so quickly, I couldn't do it.

THIS IS A CALL TO ALL STAFF AT FIFE ANE WE KNOW YOU ARE HERE. BREAK THE FEAR COME FORWARD AS WITNESSES ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL YOU HAVE A DUTY TOO.

ALL YO HAVE TO DO IS CONTACT NIAOMI CUNNINGHAM

It is quite interesting that it appears to be a whole group of born women who are in flames over this whole debacle. Over one man's insistence that he is to be given unquestioned access to the same rights, just because he feels so . The women on both sides of this argument are burnt on a professional and personal level whilst DU sits smugly in his big girl pants pretending he understands what it's like to be in their shoes (or should I say pants?). There are no female winners here at the moment.

Apologies if someone has already posted this, but here is a pretty damning report from the Evening Standard which sums up today nicely:

www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/fife-victoria-hospital-kirkcaldy-nhs-b1211244.html

I've been off for about 15 months before with mat leave followed by annual leave and then a course.

Literally came back onto normal shift rotation as if I'd never been gone!

Bank staff are only obliged to do one shift every 6 months to stay active....

Yes, grudging respect to JR. I'm assuming she's a trans zealot and full in on the ideology but if not it's even more impressive that she's willing to take on this case. Having lawyers for both sides is vital. I assume she'll be making a lot of money, but nevertheless, not a job I'd want especially when your clients are so blatantly disobeying the law.

Maybe we could organise a mumsnetter conference across the road at the Malmaison Dundee with live TT threads on a big screen plus snacks?

There is no legal definition in law. It's not stated in the equality act. The legal wording is exactly as this

Gender reassignment
(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

(2)A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—

(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;

(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons.

There is no guidance nor framework for demonstrating what counts as 'proposing to undergo' not what counts as 'reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.'

Arguably the latter is actually a nonsense phrase because you can't change the attributes of sex! You can just have plastic surgery, pump yourself full of artificial drugs or change your clothes. None of which change the attributes of sex, cos that in your genes!

And hence why we are all arguing about the indefinable nebulous legally and scientifically illiterate nature of this whole debate and it's going to the Supreme Court.

It's nonsense speak that's in the eye of the beholder and therefore unfit for purpose because there is absolutely no consensus on what it means never mind an ability to take act within or to uphold the law.

Yes, I suspect NC hopes to find evidence which can date these incidents — if they happened it’s unlikely he didn’t make contemporaneous notes and if she finds he was frequently making notes about SP and others she can suggest to the panel an inference that this means he made them up

As Dr Upton has freely admitted that he would perform an intimate examination on a female patient who has requested a woman doctor, I don't see why this stand along statement should not be complained about and an investigation expected from the GMC.

I don't see why that really has anything to do with this employment tribunal - but I should be investigated independently of it.

Excellent comments.

Who mentioned Whatsapp? 10 gold stars xx

We will get to find out who his mate is at the BMA that's so committed that they are prepared to take calls on 26th or 27th Dec while their work is offically closed down 🤔

I've asked someone to pass on collective MN thanks to Dave the Piper for this morning. 😊

Another one who wants to thank you @Jamieandhismagictorch. I learnt so much from you as JoMarch as I'm sure did many others.

I'm making an application for a forensic search of handover notes for Halloween night 2024 to see if anyone reminded the nurses not to accidentally abandon or stop resus on any anaphylactic children this time round!

Just quoting you Red so that I can share your exploding head.

Yes, exactly that. Thank you to you and everyone here - you have really crystallised all the issues.