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NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 11:43

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

OP posts:
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11
DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 14/02/2025 15:58

Maybe the phone stuff will be argued for on the basis that Upton is a self-confessed "not a computer person" who made it clear in his testimony that he wasn't very good at searching for the stuff that he was required to disclose. Hoist by his own petard perhaps?

fanOfBen · 14/02/2025 15:58

Btw, witness aren't supposed to look at anything online about the case, but what about the judge and panel members, does the same apply to them? Or may we imagine them idly wondering about these women of mumsnet and reading through all 18k posts some weekend? Come to that, same question about both sides' legal teams.

murasaki · 14/02/2025 15:59

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 14/02/2025 15:58

Maybe the phone stuff will be argued for on the basis that Upton is a self-confessed "not a computer person" who made it clear in his testimony that he wasn't very good at searching for the stuff that he was required to disclose. Hoist by his own petard perhaps?

Ooh, neat argument.

CocklesandMussels · 14/02/2025 15:59

Peaked donkey’s years ago, long time lurker, but I have to de-lurk to say:
I ❤NC.
And a huge thanks to all of you and TT who are keeping us updated. I’ve donated to Sandie’s dad’s memorial fund.

BabaYagasHouse · 14/02/2025 16:00

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 14/02/2025 12:15

If ED genuinely believed that Upton was female/a woman, that very first time when Sandie went to her about Upton in the changing room, ED would have said "don't be ridiculous, Upton is female/a woman and has every right to be in the female/women's changing room". Instead she went looking for official advice on how to deal with a man who declares himself to be a woman using the female/women's changing room. That very action proves she knows that Upton is not female/a woman. Of course she knows he's male/a man.

This is an absolutely key point! Surely?

Sorry. Realise thread has likely moved on by now.

(Also, following late, means I missed the chance on the last thread to comment that SP's Trump opinions being raised (seemingly irrelevent to the questioning), struck me as being about making sure that got into media coverage. As it has been.
But needed to say it as it was shouting in my head!)

NImumconfused · 14/02/2025 16:00

@RedToothBrush fair enough, thanks for explaining.

YourWiseBee · 14/02/2025 16:00

Fascinating battle on Reddit. The TRAs don’t want case discussed at all (or only favourable articles). They are getting posts removed, they are blocking people from posting so it’s an echo chamber etc and spreading misinformation after misinformation. I suspect they might win as they still have control of the main UK forums but don’t think this battle would have happened a year ago.

MarieDeGournay · 14/02/2025 16:01

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2025 15:55

It's so invasive and sounds disproportionate. (Especially given how incoherent the defence's testimony has been). I just can't see it being agreed to. Is it needed amongst the madness of the contradictory circular arguments? Not to mention it potentially risks a) looking like harassment itself and not adding anything new to the pot b) does actually weirdly end up proving a coherent timeline/ sequence of events this undermining bonkers testimony

It has to be said that NC has to be pretty confident it'd show that Upton is straight up lying or was straight up using the phone to record incidents with a view to harassing Sandie...

... And the court would have to be confident there's a good chance of finding that too.

That's where I think the stretch might be but hell after what nonsense we've seen maybe the judge will go for it on the strength of that.

Hmmm. I just don't see it myself. Even now, because it's a full on request.

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I feel iffy about it too. I mean, we may think Oh yes go for it it'll expose DrU! but how would we like it if our phones - which these days tend to contain almost every aspect of a person's life - had to be handed over to The Bill?

Could they just ask for the metadata, which wouldn't need his actual phone, which would show times and frequencies of calls to the BMA, but no more than that.

Notes on his phone? I suppose he could be instructed to download them, and as he's under oath... he should do so honestly.
Yes I know....🙄

NebulousHog · 14/02/2025 16:02

Two things:

Firstly, we need to really try and stay away from going after women, but particularly those who have not given evidence yet - there were a few posts on IB and she has yet to be called. The only person at fault here is DU in reality - and Fife as an organisation (which should be the senior men who are involved but somehow not giving evidence...)

Secondly, it's clear we need to be careful on what we are writing - it was only a few hours between comments on IBs Linkedin profile and it vanishing suddenly - it hadn't been altered when the comments were first made, and now it's been removed. Let's be mindful that what we write may impact this case and it may not be in a good way for SP.

Jamieandhismagictorch · 14/02/2025 16:03

Briefly delurking - I am an old timer, though no longer posting. I used to be very active as JoMarch in other places. There must be thousands, like me, gaining information and support from you lot and please be assured that I for one act on what I find out, here in the real world. So thank you! This ET has been extraordinary. Quite extraordinary - even for those of us in this fight for many years. Has not been good for my nerves, which are pretty shot anyway through the effects of trans activism on me personally.

Feck. Forgot to say the most important thing. Brava Sandie!

NebulousHog · 14/02/2025 16:03

If he's on an annual contract he will have a new phone by now - I don't think the phone thing will happen.

MarieDeGournay · 14/02/2025 16:03

I mean - handing over our phones in non-criminal cases, obvs if we're accused of something criminal, the police have certain rights to invade our privacy.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 14/02/2025 16:04

CarefulN0w · 14/02/2025 15:53

I can imagine DU is more than capable of spinning a line about a lack of cloud back up. Whether it would be credible, I can't possibly say.

But there were no patient safety incidents. Not real ones anyway. And NC has shown the DARVO on the harassment allegations.

I know people have said Fife can't/won't settle at this point, but does anyone more knowledgeable than me think that if the SC goes the way we are hoping, that they just might use that to say there is no point in carrying on?

yeah - apparently he's a 'not a computer person'...

Newtt · 14/02/2025 16:06

maltravers · 14/02/2025 15:13

Do we think DU’s phone will ever be forensically examined as per the application? Imagine what’s on it…

of course not.

It will have been deleted, boiled in bleach and dropped in the sea...

SameyMcNameChange · 14/02/2025 16:07

Jamieandhismagictorch · 14/02/2025 16:03

Briefly delurking - I am an old timer, though no longer posting. I used to be very active as JoMarch in other places. There must be thousands, like me, gaining information and support from you lot and please be assured that I for one act on what I find out, here in the real world. So thank you! This ET has been extraordinary. Quite extraordinary - even for those of us in this fight for many years. Has not been good for my nerves, which are pretty shot anyway through the effects of trans activism on me personally.

Feck. Forgot to say the most important thing. Brava Sandie!

Edited

Ooh - I remember you commenting on Times articles back when pseudonyms were allowed I think?

GCITC · 14/02/2025 16:08

CoaltownFifer · 14/02/2025 15:57

Are we predicting that there might be a large group of human females rallying in solidarity through the streets of Dundee during July? 🤔

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It wasn't where I imagined I'd spend my summer holiday but it seems too good to miss.

Manxexile · 14/02/2025 16:09

CoaltownFifer · 14/02/2025 14:55

I would have thought a senior nurse correcting errors of a junior nurse would be a valuable learning experience that ultimately acts to preserve standards within a high risk environment? I struggle to see how that could ever be a character flaw.

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Yes.

That sounds more like a problem with the junior member of staff rather than a problem with SP

RobinStrike · 14/02/2025 16:10

Thanks to @nauticant and @ickky for all your hard work. It was Mumsnet that peaked me in about 2020 and has kept me going ever since.

Jamieandhismagictorch · 14/02/2025 16:10

SameyMcNameChange · 14/02/2025 16:07

Ooh - I remember you commenting on Times articles back when pseudonyms were allowed I think?

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Yup that was me. Got quite wind-bag-y. Can't afford for my real name to be out as it's unusual😀

littlbrowndog · 14/02/2025 16:11

Bring your swimsuits. Olympia has the cannonball flume 🙌🙌🙌

murasaki · 14/02/2025 16:12

MarieDeGournay · 14/02/2025 16:03

I mean - handing over our phones in non-criminal cases, obvs if we're accused of something criminal, the police have certain rights to invade our privacy.

I agree, but he can't be trusted to supply all relevant evidence. So it's a tricky one for me.

Also, absence of evidence is also a thing, which asking him to download wouldn't cover.

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 16:12

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2025 14:40

Still 'a bit more complicated than that' on the basis of the 'how long is a piece of string' problem of the Equality Act.

Sex has legal protection under the Equality Act
But so does Gender Reassignment. And this covered anyone 'going through the process of reassignment'. So they don't have to have a GRC. They can be in the stage before getting a GRC

But this is the 'how long is a piece of string' problem. Many trans identifying people no longer have an intention of getting a GRC nor having hormones or cosmetic surgery.

So how do you define when transition has begun and whether there is an intention to full transition? Legally it makes self ID have some sort of undefined status which has no defined boundaries. Just like gender woo itself.

Which is kinda problematic in numerous respects. The law no longer works. And the GRC is kinda almost simulateanously irrevelant and legally essential.

The judge here highlights the point - he's decided that legally because Upton does not have a GRC he's not legally female. But equally legally its arguable that Upton has protections under 'going through the process of reassignment'. But has nonetheless made a judgement call...

Confused? You should be.

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Might it be argued that Gender ReAssignment formally begins with the GRC? Prior to that is like a trial period and could be stopped at any point. Once the GRC has been issued the starting gun has been fired - as serious intention to change gender? As opposed to just living as a woman prior - which is much less serious an intention than going for the GRC? Just like trying on clothes in - ahem - a changing room to see if you are going to commit to the process? You're not obliged to buy. And if you don't buy the item you don't get the insurance policy/protection that the GRA provides? Matches consumer law to some extent

Conxis · 14/02/2025 16:12

@RedToothBrush I work for a neighbouring NHS board to Fife.
The policy is we are absolutely banned from using WhatsApp for anything work related, even just to ask someone for a shift swap. The policy states if we have used WhatsApp our phone may have to be handed over to our employer for access to anything work related if needed.
Not sure if NHS Fife have this policy. Did DU state he used WhatsApp for any communication?

Newtt · 14/02/2025 16:13

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 14/02/2025 12:15

If ED genuinely believed that Upton was female/a woman, that very first time when Sandie went to her about Upton in the changing room, ED would have said "don't be ridiculous, Upton is female/a woman and has every right to be in the female/women's changing room". Instead she went looking for official advice on how to deal with a man who declares himself to be a woman using the female/women's changing room. That very action proves she knows that Upton is not female/a woman. Of course she knows he's male/a man.

Absolutely.

She appears to have changed her tune and forgotten any medical knowledge she had now though - or is simply a liar...

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