NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

"NC - Also, applied to vary Judge Tinnions order to make it more specific, and we have applied for a forensic examination of 2R's phone."

Jesus, Mary and all the donkeys - now we're cooking on gas!

Or he did make notes which would confirm exactly when the alleged incident took place and the fact that he was negligent in not reporting it

also pinpointing the date would probably allow the specific patient to be identified as well as other potential witnesses who might not support Upton’s version

What a difference a day makes - feeling positive - well done all involved for ensuring openness and transparency as far as possible.

I suspect NC thinks he may have massaged his contemporaneous notes and wants metadata but also she will also be seeking to prove he made the patient care incidents up. If there are specific dates on his phone she can seek corroborating witness testimony — or lack of. He kinda opened the door by heavy use of notes on his phone in testimony. Wonder if his KC ever said that might open the door for this? I think it might be hard for the j to refuse request re documentation used in evidence but presented not in its original.

Also, who doesn’t have iCloud backup on the go these days.

I think he only made his contemporaneous notes re interaction with women, not re patient care incidents.

used in evidence but presented not in its original.
Love this largofesse - thank you

The couple of people that said access to DU's phone won't be granted, why is that please? Not disputing your view, just wondering why it wouldn't be if there's likely to be relevant info on there?

I'm so glad they've asked for phone info. It's going to be interesting. As someone here pointed out yesterday, the BMA was closed for Christmas in the time period DU was talking about. So, a private conversation? Along the lines of "is there anything else you can get her for"?

GRA Petition has gone from 3567 > 4365 over the course of day
Google: Fully Repeal the Gender Recognition Act
**

I'm not sure they'll get phone access, but if the suggestion that they might has him shitting his big girl pants, it was worth the proposal.

No, it isn't. In this case, however, I'm not surprised that they want to see what is on DU's phone without DU deciding what they are allowed to see.

I'm beginning to think the reason we don't have any HR people as witnesses is that they seem to have tried to do their jobs, when involved they seem to have pointed out the weakness of the rationale to suspend Sandie and that it wasn't really justified...

But all more evidence that the Trust staff involved in suspending her haven't followed proper process.

It would also add weight to the harassment angle, wouldn't it, if he was tracking the behaviour of other female staff. He already said that he was using the changing room knowing full well the female staff wouldn't like it. So who else was he monitoring? Who else didn't make eye contact? I don't for a second believe that SP was the only one.

After hearing of the evidence is completed in July both NC and JR will present written (and possibly oral) arguments detailing what they see as (1) the credibility and accuracy of the evidence submitted; (2) the legal issues involved; and (3) why their client should succeed. Those arguments are likelt o take a day each.

After that the panel will have to go off, review the three weeks of evidence, review the written arguments submitted by NC and JR, research the law, apply the law to the facts as revealed in the evidence, and come to a decision.

That will takes several weeks if not months...

Contemporaneous notes that have been edited over time are like a Stone Age axe, which is 100% authentic - apart from the head being replaced in the 18th century and the shaft in the 19th...🙄

Trigger's broom....

I've been following this faithfully just want to say huge thank you to @ickky @nauticant and TT for all your hard work keeping us informed ❤️

I can imagine DU is more than capable of spinning a line about a lack of cloud back up. Whether it would be credible, I can't possibly say.

But there were no patient safety incidents. Not real ones anyway. And NC has shown the DARVO on the harassment allegations.

I know people have said Fife can't/won't settle at this point, but does anyone more knowledgeable than me think that if the SC goes the way we are hoping, that they just might use that to say there is no point in carrying on?

Is anyone else looking at hotels in Dundee for July?

If Upton's phone is forensically examined, wouldn't they then have to have him back to ask him about anything they found?

It's so invasive and sounds disproportionate. (Especially given how incoherent the defence's testimony has been). I just can't see it being agreed to. Is it needed amongst the madness of the contradictory circular arguments? Not to mention it potentially risks a) looking like harassment itself and not adding anything new to the pot b) does actually weirdly end up proving a coherent timeline/ sequence of events this undermining bonkers testimony

It has to be said that NC has to be pretty confident it'd show that Upton is straight up lying or was straight up using the phone to record incidents with a view to harassing Sandie...

... And the court would have to be confident there's a good chance of finding that too.

That's where I think the stretch might be but hell after what nonsense we've seen maybe the judge will go for it on the strength of that.

Hmmm. I just don't see it myself. Even now, because it's a full on request.

I had to google that!

we can only hope

Are we predicting that there might be a large group of human females rallying in solidarity through the streets of Dundee during July? 🤔