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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 11:43

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

OP posts:
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11
murasaki · 14/02/2025 15:20

Boiledbeetle · 14/02/2025 15:19

Accidentally thrown in bin with left over takeaway and now pinging from a landfill

I'm going for accidentally left in the lingerie changing room at M&S and now gone.

SelfPortraitWithHagstone · 14/02/2025 15:20

I am starting to think that the J keeping his notes longhand might not be quaint or old-fashioned so much as his having learnt vicariously from the experience of the unfortunates he comes into contact with on a regular basis... 😁

Merrymouse · 14/02/2025 15:20

Carriemac · 14/02/2025 14:55

Ha ha no consultant would consider a band 8 nurse their 'boss '

I assume not in medical matters, but does a consultant have more influence over HR/legal/DEI issues like this?

I'm a bit confused about when a consultant has official authority.

NotLikeACourt · 14/02/2025 15:20

Chrysanthemum5 · 14/02/2025 15:18

Yes I felt ED and JR were implying it was somehow SP's fault that someone had been rude to her

I am so cross about this. This is all they could pull up for a nurse of 30 years service..... That another junior nurse swore at SP and that ED had to speak to that nurse. ED tried to use that to discredit SP.

Any residual sympathy I may have had for ED has just flown up and out into the ether.

snickersbarchild · 14/02/2025 15:21

Yes, because its on every bloody front page and multiple news outlets. How's it feel to be famous?

JR - the witnesses ordered not to look at anything on the case, they can't really help that, they know they shouldn't seek it out,

ickky · 14/02/2025 15:21

arise, we could get other meetings in the diary, the sooner it is raised, the easier it is to deal with.

NC - just to be clear we will be back in Dundee.

J - yes.

Court rises.

Hearing is 'part heard'

ContemporaneousNotes · 14/02/2025 15:21

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 15:02

This is a method I have known doctors to use, in order to stay in a hospital local to where they live.

However, I think it's possible that he got to stay in the same place due to lack of job applicants for the posts he was filling. Several citizens of Fife have told us how shit this hospital is. Doctors will know that too, and most junior doctors don't want to train in a shit hospital.

Thank you

HalfWomanHalfHobnob · 14/02/2025 15:23

Thanks @ickky - now go and get a hand massage!

Boiledbeetle · 14/02/2025 15:24
Sleepy Cat GIF

To nauticant, ikky, and Tribunal Tweets may you all enjoy a nice break from this.

Thank you 🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹

murasaki · 14/02/2025 15:24

As I now identify as a doctor, I prescribe @ickky a large GnT.

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 14/02/2025 15:24

Re phone, he might say he was mugged in the Cr for females by a man

NImumconfused · 14/02/2025 15:25

0ctavia · 14/02/2025 15:20

I can’t believe he doesn’t have it backed up to the cloud .

Ah but he's not a computer person, so it would be entirely understandable if that was accidentally deleted too...

yourhairiswinterfire · 14/02/2025 15:25

"applied for a forensic examination of 2R's phone"

😬

I didn't know they could do that for an ET.

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 14/02/2025 15:25

Dr Upton: "I identify as Rebecca Vardy"

Bunpea · 14/02/2025 15:26

I didn’t see it either on TT.

StellaAndCrow · 14/02/2025 15:26

ED - yes
JR - it was put to you that DU only objected to SP's view that DU was not a women but also compared DU to that man in prison, what did you take from that ED - comparing DU to the rapist.
JR - no more questions, releases ED

Again, JR secretly working for the other side!

Just emphasises that Sandy said [paraphrase] "like the case in women's prisons" and then assumptions/extrapolations were made that she was "comparing DU to a rapist"

maltravers · 14/02/2025 15:26

StellaAndCrow · 14/02/2025 15:20

JR - you say ED is flat, alleged you are afraid of certain consultants, what would you do if there was inappropriate behaviour ED - I would see the appropriate person in the structure to complain JR - how would you feel about having a difficult convo at work

Have to confess that I read that as "You say the Earth is flat" . . . and just accepted it as no less likely than any other exchange . . .

JR’s subconscious is rebelling and suggesting that Wendy Cope poem:

HE TELLS HER
He tells her that the earth is flat —
He knows the facts, and that is that.
In altercations fierce and long
She tries her best to prove him wrong.
But he has learned to argue well.
He calls her arguments unsound
And often asks her not to yell.
She cannot win. He stands his ground.
The planet goes on being round.

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2025 15:26

There's no chance the phone examination will be granted. If it is I will be gobsmacked.

murasaki · 14/02/2025 15:26

NImumconfused · 14/02/2025 15:25

Ah but he's not a computer person, so it would be entirely understandable if that was accidentally deleted too...

He'll be busy googling how to cleanse his phone, from his wife's phone.

MTCoffeePot · 14/02/2025 15:27

Thanks so much everyone, especially ickky and nauticant. This has been absolutely wild!

Biffatcrafts · 14/02/2025 15:27

Forgive me if i am mistaken, or seem to be off at a tangent, and I accept I might be confused here, but as I understand it there were 2 locations where female staff could, and did, get changed.

The locker room, which was an unofficial location which had habitually been used (by virtue of its convenience) by a significant number of female staff to get changed, including SP, and where the incidents occurred.

Then there was also the basement female Changing Room (which I infer from what I have read was not as frequently or habitually used simply by reason of locational convenience), but which was, in fact, the officially designated location for female staff to change.

If my assumption is correct, and DU was given permission to use the female changing room specifically (and I think that has been indicated in the evidence given), then surely that permission only applied to the official changing location in the basement, and would not stand as any form of defacto indirect permission to use the unofficial space in the locker room.

In which case it would seem clear to me that DU, by choosing to use the locker room, was determined to use whichever facility gave him the greatest opportunity to force his male presence and his beliefs on the maximum number of women possible, and give himself the maximum opportunity to engineer a confrontation or a grievance.

Forgive me if I am talking nonsense but it just struck me as being peculiar and wanted to understand that aspect a bit better.

StellaAndCrow · 14/02/2025 15:27

So, just to clarify, we're all booking annual leave for one day for 15th April, then two weeks from 16th July? 😆

Conxis · 14/02/2025 15:27

Jerabilis · 14/02/2025 15:20

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/suspending-nurse-over-trans-doctor-34681033?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

Did I miss this from Tribunal Tweets?

HR person at Fife hospital describing Sandie's suspension as ludicrous in an email. And noting that she hadn't even been asked about the allegations.

And despite this from their OWN HR, NHS Fife still decided to defend this action???

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