NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

What exactly was she 'concerned' about?

In fairness to ED [if I may say that] she was asked, by NC I think, if there had ever been any other complaints about SP. She mentioned the only other one, which was this. I imagine the judge+panel can form their own opinion about how serious a junior nurse calling a senior nurse by 'a bad name' is - I have a couple of nurses in my circle, and I remember the things they called their Nurse Tutors when they were training😱

Did you see that?

ED - yes

JR - it was put to you that DU only objected to SP's view that
DU was not a women but also compared DU to that man in prison, what did you take from that

ED - comparing DU to the rapist.

JR - no more questions, releases ED

Yes, I’ve noticed that in online places I hang out. Usually very quick to shout about TWAW, TERFs, emotional blackmail with “some of our members have trans kids!” in an attempt to shut down discussion, and on a forum of women who usually discuss women’s rights and current affairs, no discussion at all. I wonder why

Usually on a thread like this it is hijacked by pro trans supporters. Instead it is a sea of calm. We all agree. SP is a hero.

This is a method I have known doctors to use, in order to stay in a hospital local to where they live.

However, I think it's possible that he got to stay in the same place due to lack of job applicants for the posts he was filling. Several citizens of Fife have told us how shit this hospital is. Doctors will know that too, and most junior doctors don't want to train in a shit hospital.

It is very odd.

It's much easier with hindsight, a paper trail and the whole picture.
Being in the thick of it with imperfect info much more difficult - esp when DU does seem to have been trying to play everyone

There is a lot of media coverage too.

J - before applications, can we talk about dates

JR - I think we need 10 days given how long NC took with various witnesses

J - do we have a timetable

NC - we are expecting additional docs, quite a large volume,

J - can I get timetables from both sides

My theory is that terfs type and read faster and the TRA's just ain't up to our speed.

I think it is fair to say that the TRA have almost no understanding of what is going on in the Tribunal or why. And haven't bothered to appraise themselves of any evidence or shown any interest in observing the hearing to be able to judge for themselves. But why bother when evidence is so nebulous?

What a fucking cheek JR has, cos of how long NC to to question.

So a junior nurse called SP a 'name' and was spoken to. SP is accused of calling DU a rapist by implication and is suspended.

Have I missed something or did anyone other than KS speak to DU to clarify their version of events. Usually an independent investigator will speak to both parties. Did this ever happen?

Fuck off JR!

JR - I think we need 10 days given how long NC took with various witnesses

NC - we are expecting additional docs, quite a large volume

The occupational health convo
was about fitness to attend meeting. ED is conflating, I think, because she has been coached to obfuscate the decision for SP to return under supervision which meant that had to move her to day shifts bcos no suitable grade staff available on nights. Post rationalisation about it being support when anyone with a brain cell can tell it was about being able to say to BU SP was under supervision. Panel right to question conflation re occupational health and doing it in such a way as to not make ED feel undermined. Quite clever really.

NC - I can't do that until I get full compliance with Judge Tinions 3 jan order, it's impossible to do. My cross exam of KS, who has emerged as a key player, will be considerably longer. She wasn't on the original witness list.

J - can I go back to the first q,

Odd that! 😁

'How long NC took with witnesses'!!!

The cheek of JR

J - when you spoke to SP, were you simply passing on a decision that had been made or were you part of the decisions
ED - I thought the decision had been made
J - and who do you think made that decision
ED - consultants and IB
J - what did you understand SP

I can't imagine any situation in which medical consultants would be involved in a decision as to who uses which changing room?

And I can't really imagine a Band 8 nurse thinking it was the consultant doctors' jobs to do that.

Maybe it's different where I work . . .

I think Dr U even admitted this.

I have to say based on DU evidence he would have asserted his biological womanhood to SP in the CR

So i would not be at all surprised if she did retort what about your chromosomes are they xx aswell

I know i would have.

It could only ever be offensive in UP’s mad head.

NC - takes instruction, we will not oppose 10 days,

JR - now discussing witness availability, proposing starting on 16 July.

<p2 leaves room for diary>

Panel consulting

J - That seems to work for everyone, we will start on 16th. So that means 28th last day of evidence and

Agreed, although I like how quickly NC pointed out that they would be expecting (yet more!) documents to be disclosed.