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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 11:43

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

OP posts:
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11
ickky · 14/02/2025 14:53

ED - I have difficult convos at work all the time

JR - who really runs the A&E

ED - we work as a team, the consultants sometimes say I'm their boss, but that's not true

JR - what are the consequences on patient care when two people have difficulty working together

NebulousDog · 14/02/2025 14:53

I'm trying to catch up, having had minimal phone signal all morning

"ED - I have no recollection of that, it's not the same as the doc DU sent"

Doe this mean that the formal complaint has new allegations added, though still woolly?

frenchnoodle · 14/02/2025 14:54

NebulousDog · 14/02/2025 14:53

I'm trying to catch up, having had minimal phone signal all morning

"ED - I have no recollection of that, it's not the same as the doc DU sent"

Doe this mean that the formal complaint has new allegations added, though still woolly?

Surely proof of more things missing?

INeedAPensieve · 14/02/2025 14:54

PocketFullOfPuddocks · 14/02/2025 14:50

I am another lurker raising my head to thank everyone who has worked so hard to pull these threads together.

I am a 3rd year Nursing student who has been following this week in horror while at the same time applying with my cohort for our first positions in NHS Fife and Tayside.

Oh lordy good luck with that @PocketFullOfPuddocks !

I also want to say thanks again for this new thread. I've not caught up with all the pages yet, but my god it's so awful. How are we here??? How?

MarieDeGournay · 14/02/2025 14:54

PocketFullOfPuddocks · 14/02/2025 14:50

I am another lurker raising my head to thank everyone who has worked so hard to pull these threads together.

I am a 3rd year Nursing student who has been following this week in horror while at the same time applying with my cohort for our first positions in NHS Fife and Tayside.

in that case you deserve Flowers✊💪🙏and everything else we can muster to send you support!!

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 14:54

NebulousHog · 14/02/2025 14:02

I think I worked out she was early - mid twenties... So yes, very young.

So from the dates is it possible to work out staff moves?

  • DU arrives in the department in Aug 2023, but has been on another rotation previously at The Vic?
  • ED had just been promoted? Or was promoted around October 2023?
  • IB was youngish and new in post - when?

A good friend of mine arrived at a new job in education (female and minority ethnic background) in a senior post. She'd been waiting a long time for a similar post and thought it was her big break. On arrival almost all of the senior team left or were suspended subject to an investigation. She was handed the task of conducting the investigation. Anyone wonder if something similar happened with senior/experienced folks saw DU arriving and thought they'd look for a quieter life elsewhere?

ickky · 14/02/2025 14:54

ED - communication is very important in caring for patients, we wouldn't want an outburst or confrontation when caring for patients

JR - length of suspension, how much leave did SP have in March

ED - 2 weeks

JR - how long does it take for rosters,

ED - 6 weeks

JR - when did

CoaltownFifer · 14/02/2025 14:55

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 14/02/2025 14:49

ED - a junior staff, who thought that SP was nitpicking and finding errors, she felt she was pushed to it and called her something not very nice, I had to speak with the junior staff

Jesus they're really scraping the barrel here...and JR keeps bringing it up. Is that all they can find on her after 30 years, nitpicking, finding errors?? - dear god the horror!

I would have thought a senior nurse correcting errors of a junior nurse would be a valuable learning experience that ultimately acts to preserve standards within a high risk environment? I struggle to see how that could ever be a character flaw.

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 14:55

Tootsweets23 · 14/02/2025 14:02

Where are all the grown ups? Where are the lawyers, the board members, the safety and risk people? The safeguarding people? Where are they all? This is a complete car crash.

drunk driving?

Carriemac · 14/02/2025 14:55

ickky · 14/02/2025 14:53

ED - I have difficult convos at work all the time

JR - who really runs the A&E

ED - we work as a team, the consultants sometimes say I'm their boss, but that's not true

JR - what are the consequences on patient care when two people have difficulty working together

Ha ha no consultant would consider a band 8 nurse their 'boss '

Boiledbeetle · 14/02/2025 14:56

Carriemac · 14/02/2025 14:55

Ha ha no consultant would consider a band 8 nurse their 'boss '

More like buttering her up for favours talk.

ickky · 14/02/2025 14:56

DU go to anaesthetics

ED - I would have to check with the consultants
(missed a q&a)

JR - did you have any concerns other than the roster in bringing SP back to work

ED - she had been off work for some time, I was concerned

JR - SP's reaction to dept move?

Retirementsoon · 14/02/2025 14:56

I am following this with great interest. I am glad that there isn’t the usual pro trans pile on. But I am wondering why?

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 14/02/2025 14:56

CoaltownFifer · 14/02/2025 14:55

I would have thought a senior nurse correcting errors of a junior nurse would be a valuable learning experience that ultimately acts to preserve standards within a high risk environment? I struggle to see how that could ever be a character flaw.

Yes exactly, and it was the junior person who lashed out and called her something 'not very nice', I'm assuming an insult. But somehow it's being framed as Sandie in the wrong.

snickersbarchild · 14/02/2025 14:57

ickky · 14/02/2025 14:54

ED - communication is very important in caring for patients, we wouldn't want an outburst or confrontation when caring for patients

JR - length of suspension, how much leave did SP have in March

ED - 2 weeks

JR - how long does it take for rosters,

ED - 6 weeks

JR - when did

Looks like SP has managed to not have an outburst or confrontation in the previous 3 years though, eh?

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 14:57

NotLikeACourt · 14/02/2025 14:05

Her LI profile is now gone...

Her mum is probably here and gave her the heads up. This is a classic case where the minions in the middle will be falsely held responsible for policies pushed on them from higher up. Horrible situation. I do have some sympathy

fanOfBen · 14/02/2025 14:58

Retirementsoon · 14/02/2025 14:56

I am following this with great interest. I am glad that there isn’t the usual pro trans pile on. But I am wondering why?

where isn't there?

ickky · 14/02/2025 14:58

ED - she absolutely did not want to do that

JR - now in Datix, 'escalation of behaviour' it was put to you that this is a reference to patient safety issue

ED - I think it's referring to the child who left without being seen, and SP wouldn't speak to DU

JR - email from GM

snickersbarchild · 14/02/2025 14:58

30 years

Carriemac · 14/02/2025 14:58

Carriemac
Ha ha no consultant would consider a band 8 nurse their 'boss '

More like buttering her up for favours talk.

@Boiledbeetle exactly . Medics are managed by medics , ED hierarchy is very flat though and usually pulls together as a team so this whole thing is surprising to say the least

MoleAtTheCounter · 14/02/2025 14:59

StellaAndCrow · 14/02/2025 14:49

And yes, I'm considerable less sympathetic to ED now that I know she's a Band 8!

Do we know if ED is a Band 8a or 8b, 8c, 8d? I see that a Band 8a with 5+ years gets £60,503 but a Band 8d can get £101,677.

ickky · 14/02/2025 14:59

'supported back to work on day shift' where did that come from

ED - it was felt she would be shielded from difficulty and supported by time on day shifts, and then return to her normal roster

JR - DU's account of CR incident, 'she asked me about my chromosomes'

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 14:59

GalacticTowelMaster · 14/02/2025 14:09

Is this allowed?!?

It was a youtube of a lionness stalking prey!
So I think the court won't mind too much 😂

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2025 14:59

Merrymouse · 14/02/2025 14:35

I thought the Supreme Court was discussing the status of people with a GRC, which we are assuming Dr Upton cannot have?

It is.

But all this is further muddied by the exact wording of the Equality Act (which might well be problematic in the Supreme Court ruling). This says

Gender reassignment
(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.
(2)A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.
(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—
(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;
(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons.

This automatically lumps Self ID into the same protected characteristic as anyone who has a GRC. So I do hope the 'how long is a piece of string' problem is also addressed by the SC.

In theory atm you can be thinking about transitioning for half an hour today and during that half an hour have different rights to the half an hour either side. Potentially including legally being biologically female even though you have a penis. But not have to prove to anyone else outside your head that you were the opposite sex during that half an hour. Everyone just has to accept your word for it.

Harassedevictee · 14/02/2025 14:59

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2025 14:40

Still 'a bit more complicated than that' on the basis of the 'how long is a piece of string' problem of the Equality Act.

Sex has legal protection under the Equality Act
But so does Gender Reassignment. And this covered anyone 'going through the process of reassignment'. So they don't have to have a GRC. They can be in the stage before getting a GRC

But this is the 'how long is a piece of string' problem. Many trans identifying people no longer have an intention of getting a GRC nor having hormones or cosmetic surgery.

So how do you define when transition has begun and whether there is an intention to full transition? Legally it makes self ID have some sort of undefined status which has no defined boundaries. Just like gender woo itself.

Which is kinda problematic in numerous respects. The law no longer works. And the GRC is kinda almost simulateanously irrevelant and legally essential.

The judge here highlights the point - he's decided that legally because Upton does not have a GRC he's not legally female. But equally legally its arguable that Upton has protections under 'going through the process of reassignment'. But has nonetheless made a judgement call...

Confused? You should be.

The point I was making is that under Haldane technically a female single sex space remains a SSS if a TW with a GRC is allowed to use it because their legal sex is female. However, if a TW with no GRC is allowed to use a female SSS, it ceases to be a single sex space as a TW is not legally female.

This is where the hospital need to be crystal clear, is the Women’s CR a gender neutral space incorrectly labelled or is it a female SSS?

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