NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

WTF
So the (non) investigation was so much of an investigation that it required a hand over !!!!

I may be wrong but they appear to be clarifying the time line so they have a detailed chronology of who knew what and when. By linking back to the factual evidence e.g. suspension letter, Formal Complaint, Datix etc. it makes it easier (not easy) to work out whose evidence is more likely to be accurate.

I think ED has messed up by saying that she was advised suspension required both the CR in incidents and the professional misconduct allegations to make it serious enough. I need to go back to TT to confirm but I think ED had only suspended on CR incidents.

Hmmm

So this speaks volumes about DU wanting SP out of the department to prevent her from rallying support. Seems that Fife might have changed their decision if more complained ...

JR - second encounter between DU and SP, did you have any info about their state of dress or undress

ED - no

JR - you mentioned 'fairness' in telling the staff about the permission to use the CRs, what did you mean

ED - that all staff could have the same information

and this -
ED - GM told me because I would be called as a witness

it sounds like a bit of careful phrasing re witnesses carrying out investigations etc.

From earlier:
Judge and Panel return.
P2 - you mentioned support on return to work, can I understand more about that
ED - it's occupational health and its to assess if able to return to work, to make sure that they are fit to return to work to the same work.
P2 =- in this circumstance I had understood its to make sure SP is fit to participate in IX.
ED - missed. They usually do 2 things, they have telephone convo, prior to Covid it was face to face and then it's a follow up.
P2- you mentioned grades, you thought is should be grade 7 or 8, can you explain

This isn't right is it? Yesterday clarified that the "support" was to "oversee her interactions with patients and colleagues"

Honestly, sometimes I think we wimmin here are following more closely than the panel are!

@ContemporaneousNotes I think we can all agree that Upton is either mental struggling or happy to use the threat of his wellbeing as a way to get what he wants so I wouldn't be surprised if he has requested staying at a hospital that suits him rather than the usual moving around

But she had time to research the DEI policies despite never no never doubting what IB had already told her?

JR - when you spoke with IB, were you specific about who it was or how did you describe them

ED - when I spoke with IB I said I had a TW doctor who was using the female CR, I didn't use names, I asked about the policy and said I had a nurse who was uncomfortable

And yes, I'm considerable less sympathetic to ED now that I know she's a Band 8!

No wonder Upton was so determined to prevent Sandie from speaking with others, or ''rallying them to her cause'', is that how he put it?

She's immediately suspended, she's not allowed to discuss what's going on with colleagues...they really wanted to make sure no one else spoke up in case they'd have to grow a backbone and tell the entitled man ''no''. Fuckers.

Yes. What I was trying to say was I don't want to pin it on her, I think the broader responsibility lives with whoever appointed her to the role and whoever devises the policy that she is the mouthpiece for.

ED - a junior staff, who thought that SP was nitpicking and finding errors, she felt she was pushed to it and called her something not very nice, I had to speak with the junior staff

Jesus they're really scraping the barrel here...and JR keeps bringing it up. Is that all they can find on her after 30 years, nitpicking, finding errors?? - dear god the horror!

Well, she's certainly lost out in favour of Upton, but the case is yet to be decided

Do we know that moving hospitals is customary in Scotland as in England? Distances are greater, wouldn't be surprising if people often stay at their local hospital here as there may not be many within a reasonable distance.

Hmmmm… implication being that they were looking for reasons to justify suspension as struggling to find any other option - which of course unquestionably favours BU and would support SP’s ET claims

I am another lurker raising my head to thank everyone who has worked so hard to pull these threads together.

I am a 3rd year Nursing student who has been following this week in horror while at the same time applying with my cohort for our first positions in NHS Fife and Tayside.

So presumably they stopped EDs investigation once they got a wiff it could end up in ET and tried to do a deep clean.

JR - when did you see formal complaint? Reading out email that refers to attached, is that the same document

ED - yes, and it's dated 7 june

JR - does that assist you with when you saw this doc

ED - I have no recollection of that, it's not the same as the doc DU sent

Sandie was 'nitpicking'? Maybe she has standards, is all.

JR - you say ED is flat, alleged you are afraid of certain consultants, what would you do if there was inappropriate behaviour

ED - I would see the appropriate person in the structure to complain

JR - how would you feel about having a difficult convo at work

Ooo complaint remastered by July ed did not see that

Well I hope you manage to avoid the Vic...

exactly! It’s irrelevant whether Sandie was the nastiest meanest person there or conversely the loveliest sweetest person there

it’s not about her personality but they keep on trying to make it that it was mean Sandie being nasty to poor fragrant fragile dr Upton

My DS ( same age as DU) did his F1 and F2 rotations at the same hospital in Manchester by choice . As did many of his peers .