NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

So the only reason she didn't do anything about Sandie being upset and uncomfortable was because no one else had complained.

But when he is upset and uncomfortable the world stops turning for him.

ED has just admitted to the judge that if more women had come forward about DU in the CR then they would have had to think again 😲

ED - we are ED we have to refer patients to specialists, there's a lot of mental health issues at the moment

no shit Sherlock!

Still 'a bit more complicated than that' on the basis of the 'how long is a piece of string' problem of the Equality Act.

Sex has legal protection under the Equality Act
But so does Gender Reassignment. And this covered anyone 'going through the process of reassignment'. So they don't have to have a GRC. They can be in the stage before getting a GRC

But this is the 'how long is a piece of string' problem. Many trans identifying people no longer have an intention of getting a GRC nor having hormones or cosmetic surgery.

So how do you define when transition has begun and whether there is an intention to full transition? Legally it makes self ID have some sort of undefined status which has no defined boundaries. Just like gender woo itself.

Which is kinda problematic in numerous respects. The law no longer works. And the GRC is kinda almost simulateanously irrevelant and legally essential.

The judge here highlights the point - he's decided that legally because Upton does not have a GRC he's not legally female. But equally legally its arguable that Upton has protections under 'going through the process of reassignment'. But has nonetheless made a judgement call...

Confused? You should be.

Yes I think that's rather significant!!

ED - shortly after 3 Jan, I had been speaking with Michelle, and we started working on this so it must have been between 3 and 15 Jan

J - it says from 3 Jan, so was that prospective or retrospective

ED - it was retrospective.

J - now policy on responding to hate incidents

Exactly, why is one women being uncomfortable not enough?

That's presumably why the climate of fear is so important. Can't have too many women confident enough to speak up now, can we?

This sounds like they had to fabricate something to achieve the required result, suspension.

They really have it in for SP.

J - is that the right one

ED - yes

J - is that the one you were looking at in late August

ED - no, not at that point, I looked at it after the incident in the changing room

J - terms of reference, who gave those to you

ED - I don't understand

Jesus wept.

One women disagrees, and she can be suspended for harassment.

Two or more women disagree and ED can find the balls to say no to Upton and not persecute Sandie.

Facepalm.

Well this is WHY SP had to be suspended for harassment to prevent other women from finding their ovaries and speaking up.

J - did anyone come to you and say 'this is what you are investigating'

ED - no, I was investigating the allegations

J - how were you told to stop the IX

ED - GM told me because I would be called as a witness

J - once AG was appointed, did you have a handover

I don't think she's young. I think she's worked there for 30 years, same as Sandie. I just despair that someone can make it to Band 8 but be totally inept in managing an investigation and suspension. I mean, how could she get to Band 8 without experience of this stuff?

I know of 2 young people between 19 and 22 who are in similar roles, one in education, whose post are seen as progressive by the hiring managers etc. I suspect because those youngsters are 'In the know' re woke issues, aka indoctrinated, as you say. However, as we are seeing here, this comes with some serious risks due to their lack of life experience to make rational sense of any previous indoctrination and has led to a potential legal nightmare for their organisation, and likely to their own credibility as supposed ambassadors for equality.

So it’s a numbers game. You can bully and harass one awkward woman to put anyone else off that coming forward and complicating things.

btw, SPs husband isn't too bad looking, at least in the picture I saw. Him holding her hand and wearing a support ribbon. Now that's a good man, and on valentines day too!

Like 2 or more women’s testimony being equal to 1 man’s….

Sandie should not have had to say the exact words "I wish to complain because I am upset and uncomfortable about sharing the women's changing room with a man".

She brought it up with a senior member of staff, who discovered the answer was going to be unsatisfactory for Sandie, and possibly other women and did absolutely fuck all. No fucks given to the welfare of the staff below her.

None.

ED - yes, she came down to my office, I gave her copies of the policies, and everything I had.

J - at that point you would have had 2 docs, from DU and KS

ED - missed the answer

Which aspect of Dr Upton’s health?

J - how were you told to stop the IX

Interesting judge calling it an investigation.

The other nurses needed a manly man like Peter to voice their concerns.

Yes I thought NHS fife were saying what ED did was not an investigation

J - no more qs.

JR - you mentioned one complaint from junior staff member can you describe that

ED - a junior staff, who thought that SP was nitpicking and finding errors, she felt she was pushed to it and called her something not very nice, I had to speak with the junior staff