NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

J - you found out SP was involved on 31st of Jan, was that from Louise?

ED - yes that's correct, there was an email from Kate, and a phone call from Louise

J - had you seen the Datix

ED - I can't say when I saw that

J - what advice did you get from Gillian Malone, and ?

The time may be upon us, when this type of role will be seen as a poisoned challice, which only the naive or trapped would take on.

Yes, but if the judgement isn't made until 3 or 4 months later, is that normal to take so long for a decision?

I was just saying in principle a SC decision could impact an ongoing case but I’ve no idea if it would affect this particular case. I don’t know enough about the legal arguments they are making re CRs and GRCs etc.

I dont get it! How can someone that young have enough experience??! And getting paid more than a nurse.

yes

Yes @HornyHornersPinkyWinky it can take a long time for a decision to be published. It takes a lot of time for the label to discuss and write up their findings

I thought the Supreme Court was discussing the status of people with a GRC, which we are assuming Dr Upton cannot have?

ED - there were two aspects to the complaint, the changing room incident and patient safety angle, we were looking for solutions

J - what did GM say

ED - she said if it could compromise patient care, that would justify suspension

J - 2 factors to your decision, now notes of

I mean if they are going to reconvene in July to hear other crucial witnesses and final pleadings it would only be ca. 3 months - which is short

@RedToothBrush I laughed at the reference because I loved Rik Mayall but Wes Streeting is no Lord Flashheart.

THIS!

This really started to feel sinister if the convention is to move when combined with the total control DU seemed to have over the other staff - psychiatry (ED mentioned knew DU from there before), then A&E, then Anaesthesia (again ED comment). Potentially gathering more support/status with each move. More and more difficult to say no to.

I get it. The BeKind thing. It is good to be positive. I know there are a lot of rotters but most people are decent and want to live-and-let-live... IMO we should have a society where gender diverse people can do their own thing. As long as we all pass the Grainger test with our views then that is OK by me.

BUT Savile, Shipman, Oldham... time and time again we see it. If there is a loophole left, by moving too quickly or blinded by good intention, then someone will seek to use it for their own nefarious purpose.

It is a sad part of human nature and we have a duty to each other to protect everyone from it. No policy should be taken to extremes and safeguarding should always trump EDI unless there is a lot of scrutiny and understanding of changes.

meeting with AG. Are these notes reasonably accurate
ED - AG sent them, I read through them, I had thought they are fairly accurate

J - Q5, spoke to IB, looked at policy, discussed with consultant colleague - who -

ED - Kate Searle

J - had anyone else come to me, I would have

I think it's ED (senior nurse) who's a band 8?

I suspect upton's health may be a reason why he is doing his rotations at the same hospital each time

Ah sorry was getting mixed up!

had to do something, why if another person had come forward would you need to do something

ED - I was thinking that many people might have come forward and been uncomfortable we would need to look for another solution

J - now the formal complaint

Can someone cleverer than I explain the panel's line of questioning?

IANAL, but I think that if the SC case goes our way, it shows that EVEN if a male has a GRC, the comparator for EA purposes is a male without a GRC; the implication would be that even a male with a GRC wouldn't have a right to be in a female changing room. A fortiori (nice bit of legal terminology), Upton wouldn't have a right to be there.

If basement CR = the official changing room, wouldn't it follow that DU granted right to use that one rather than make SP change her customary practice of several years.

I also don’t think the SC decision will be directly on point here as it was about how GRCs affect the meaning of sex in the Equality Act and it seems highly unlikely DU has a GRC. But I suppose it’s feasible that in their discussion the SC justices confirm something that is relevant to this case. E.g. it was agreed before the court by all parties that a man without a GRC is for all purposes male.

Surely the law is the law whether it is 1 person or many affected?

oooh, good point!

J - difficult q, do you remember when you saw for the first time

ED - honestly I can't

J - as of 3 Jan all you have seen is hate incident, can you give us a rough date

ED - I'm sorry I can't

J - page 778, do you remember when this was first prepared,

I'm sorry - I really shouldn't have been making a different point in reply to your post; which I of course acknowledge was quite correct.