NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

Do none of these people care about the law? Clearly not. The entirety of NHS fife seem to feel free to break the law in any way that is advantageous to them.

DU: crybully at work, snarky witness, intimidating (bullying) behaviour towards NC in court room, saying under oath he is a biological woman;

ED evasive, investigating then not investigating, "ask [someone else]", says she would have solved CR problem by leaving, with no grasp that SP did that very thing and DU criticised her for that.. I could go on. This is the land of silly, impacting so many women's lives.

Also delurking, and many thanks to Ikky, Nauticant and many others.

I've been on FWR for almost a decade and read daily but rarely post as I generally feel others have said what I would have, but put it better!

Delighted NC brought up DARVO.

True. Those female nurses aren't going to harass themselves!

I wonder if this is part of showing that Upton was fully involved in ensuring that SP was punished as much as he could possibly manipulate?

They've all got the idea that she did compare him to a rapist from somewhere and it was only SP and BU in the changing room. Did he tell them that's what she said to make it sound worse?

Since NC has got testimony from BU that she didn't in fact say those words... either BU has at the very least exaggerated if not actually lied, or possibly KS has passed on what BU said to her and exaggerated if not actually lied.

Another lurker who has been following along. Many thanks for the threads. I can't believe what I'm reading most days. Just ridiculous. Especially coming from medical practitioners who surely know full well that you cannot change your sex.

Under the section about her Masters in Global Health and Management she writes
“I hope this degree will give me the opportunity to persue (sic) a career in Global health research and policy.”

Perhaps she’ll follow that path now.

I think the word "policy" is going to give her nightmares after this!

I think it's more uncomfortable for NHS Fife. No experience, no relevant training - how was she supposed to advise on a contentious matter like this? There is so much incorrect advice floating around, particularly from organisations who should know better. Perhaps she just googled the RCN website.

I had a look the other day to see if KS had any kind of online profile. Zilch.

"Since NC has got testimony from BU that she didn't in fact say those words... either BU has at the very least exaggerated if not actually lied, or possibly KS has passed on what BU said to her and exaggerated if not actually lied."

I think this is key evidence NC has extracted from her cross examination. DU admitted SP didn't name Bryson but he claimed she compared him to a convicted rapist. She disputes this claim (and by the sounds of it, it's this comparison that appears to have allegedly kicked off KS's excessive involvement in what happened afterwards) so getting DU's admission SP didn't refer to Bryson is more persuasive (In my opinion).

Obviously, the panel would need to come to the same view & that's up in the air for now. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I thought NC wasn't permitted to refer to other witnesses' testimony?

The full title of her MSc is Global Health and Management, Applied Medical Science

Applied Medical Science…

Which is weird, because I thought there was one, but when I looked again I found nothing.

However, I was getting easily muddled at the time so may have gotten names mixed up. And deleting profiles doesn't mean people are breaking the law with looking into witnesses etc.

It's also possible she started stripping it, realised it was illegal and put it back as it was. I hope someone kept some receipts if true. I suppose Linkedin admin would know.

I do feel we should perhaps not be ripping a young woman to shreds before we've even heard her testimony; let's not stoop that low?

I abhor what happened to SP but the critical issue here is DU.

I am loving all the lurkers delurking.

I'm de-lurking too. So grateful to all here for their hard work, and for sharing their knowledge, experiences and informed perspectives. We are in a world of absolute woke travesty here, and it cannot be allowed to continue. My prayers for Sandie Peggie and that she gets the justice she so clearly deserves.

Delurker here with for Ikky and all of us.

The fact that ED tampered with SP statement fit IX is startling.

I just came across this line in a BBC article about Russia hitting the Chernobyl radiation shield and thought the line could be useful for the respondents:

Russia has denied any claims it attacked Chernobyl, stating its military does not strike Ukrainian nuclear infrastructure and "any claims that this was the case do not correspond to reality".

Has been coached to replace the word supervision with support. It couldn’t be clearer. I’m agog to know how the panel view continues sophistry. We will have to wait a long time for their judgement now.

Upton's account was that SP didn't refer to Isla Bryson, and didn't refer to a rapist:

DU - she said it wasn't safe for me to be there, asked what my chromosomes were, said it was analagous to the recent case, I assumed Isla Bryson...
JR - hang on please explain exactly the prisons comment
DU - she said it's like the situation in the prisons.
JR -what did you think

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1887509244632551457

In particular, note the plural.

The Fife cases I mentioned - links coming up for non-Fifers who may not have heard of them.

Peter Laing/Paris Green is still in prison and still has not had the surgery.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/54-years-for-trio-who-tortured-victim-to-death-1553766

Thanks - we're keeping our fingers crossed for you.

Thanks to all for the updates and analysis, from another one who has (mainly) lurked through so much of this.