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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 11:43

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
ThatDaringMintCritic · 14/02/2025 13:39

I believe NC didn't challenge the rapist justification each time ED bought it up to demonstrate how pivotal it was to the Trust's groupthink. When you remove that, the whole thing collapses as it comes down to a disputed mention of chromosomes in an otherwise calm conversation and some undated incidents brought up possibly two months afterwards.

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 14/02/2025 13:39

I worked as a DEI advisor in several Scottish public sector organisations. I was a unison rep and TUC disabled workers committee member. all the information I was getting was TWAW and no opposing beliefs were communicated to us. Gender, not Sex, was the langauge used in all policies. Boards were gender balanced (TW could be women). rainbow laces and lanyards, LGBT+ allies staff networks but no disabled staff or BAME networks (as 'no demand'), staff expected to attend pride marches, get training from the Scottish Transgender Alliance, Stonewall diversity champions, Stonewall person sat on the equallity advisory group, disabled toilets changed to 'gender neutral' meaning the only disabled toilet I could use I had to now queue for, final straw came in 2019 when I was told off for using the wrong pronouns in an agenda where a transwoman was a keynote speaker. I went on long term sick, made grievances of disability and sex discrimination, I wish I'd had someone like NC or Sex Matters supporting me as Unison reps could have been better. They got me a settlement, but made me drop the sex discrimination complaint as it was 'unlikely to succeed'.

I am no longer in Unison and I transitioned to work for an organisation that supports a single PC - not sex or gender reassignment. My job title is not DEI anymore so that's someone else's responsibility. However, I keep my mouth shut as I could struggle to find alternative employment if things change here. I am very much a DEI professional at heart, but its hard to do that job without drinking the kool aid. Maybe, if I ever get the money, I'll study law instead.

ValerieDoonican · 14/02/2025 13:39

CheekySnake · 14/02/2025 12:40

And because Upton's assertion that he is a woman is a 'protected belief' and therefore cannot be challenged, the mere act of reporting that he's in there is considered harassment.

Because it challenges the belief.

So you can't mention to a flat earther you're off on a round the world cruise then?

Im.not sure that's what the law emans by "protected" is it. It just means you can't (unfortunately) refuse to employ a doctor who doesn't understand how sex works, or an airline company can't sack the flat earther, so long as they are willing to get on the last leg back from LAx without screaming that the airline company is flying them all off the edge?

Simpz · 14/02/2025 13:40

I would be curious to know if other colleagues of Upton from previous employers have spoken out against Upton or even if they are telling the truth about using f CR in previous place of work.

Newtt · 14/02/2025 13:40

I am simply astounded that Doctor Upton freely admitted that he would perform an intimate examination on a female patient who had requested a woman doctor.

The fact that he has registered his sex with the GMC as 'Female', presumably means that the NHS as a whole support this (in my view) violation of women's rights.

The entire situation is shocking - how on earth did we (women) get here?

It also seems that UNISON have declared that 'trans-women' are women - so presumably no support from that union when women wish to be provided with their legal right to access single sex changing rooms in the work place?

Wandersinwoods · 14/02/2025 13:40

And another de-lurker! Huge thanks for these threads and for all the brilliant threads on FWR. I'm a regular reader of them and have found that other posters eloquence and firm grasp on the facts has helped me express my own views much more succinctly.

youkiddingme · 14/02/2025 13:40

Largofesse · 14/02/2025 13:34

Has been coached to replace the word supervision with support. It couldn’t be clearer. I’m agog to know how the panel view continues sophistry. We will have to wait a long time for their judgement now.

I'm thinking support is offered with no strings attached and can be freely declined. Do we have evidence it wasn't proferred in that manner?

WearyAuldWumman · 14/02/2025 13:42

The late Andrew Burns/Mr Mighty Almighty/Obi Wan Kenobi/Mitzababy/Tiffany Scott.

NB When Burns claimed to be a woman, his own brother told a reporter that he was 'at it'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-68442073

Tiffany Scott

Trans prisoner Tiffany Scott dies in jail

The 32-year-old, previously known as Andrew Burns, was the subject of a lifelong restriction order.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-68442073

nauticant · 14/02/2025 13:43

ThatDaringMintCritic · 14/02/2025 13:39

I believe NC didn't challenge the rapist justification each time ED bought it up to demonstrate how pivotal it was to the Trust's groupthink. When you remove that, the whole thing collapses as it comes down to a disputed mention of chromosomes in an otherwise calm conversation and some undated incidents brought up possibly two months afterwards.

I think NC is going to rely simply what's on record and say Upton's testimony was that SP talked about "prisons" but it was after that, as the incident was kicked around in NHS Fife, that it turned into a comparison with Isla Bryson. I think NC didn't want to keep worrying at this issue in case an alternative narrative arose from NHS Fife meaning that her clear and clean argument would be muddied.

OP posts:
PriOn1 · 14/02/2025 13:45

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:58

her to use the CR]

NC Why change her words here?

ED Yes I corrected

NC Is it cos yr so scared you even change SPs words

ED No

NC re her leaving the meeting and finding it bizarre. Can u agree that being treated unjustly it makes u angry

ED If u perceive that

Correcting Sandie’s pronoun use, no less, according to HolyroodMandy on Twix.

https://x.com/holyroodmandy/status/1890384843852149107

”ED admits that she changed the pronouns that Sandie had used about Dr Upton as a 'he' to 'she' in her report on meeting with Sandie.”

x.com

https://x.com/holyroodmandy/status/1890384843852149107

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 14/02/2025 13:45

what is the plan for this afternoon? Who is questioning who?

NecessaryScene · 14/02/2025 13:46

This isn't quite ridiculous enough for me. I want people to start identifying as different blood types next, which will force them to start pretending they can't test for blood types and that blood types aren't significant in medicine.

How far can they be pushed? Can People-Who-Must-Never-Be-Told-No make them deny all medical knowledge? I don't see why not.

CheekySnake · 14/02/2025 13:46

ValerieDoonican · 14/02/2025 13:39

So you can't mention to a flat earther you're off on a round the world cruise then?

Im.not sure that's what the law emans by "protected" is it. It just means you can't (unfortunately) refuse to employ a doctor who doesn't understand how sex works, or an airline company can't sack the flat earther, so long as they are willing to get on the last leg back from LAx without screaming that the airline company is flying them all off the edge?

It seems to be how ED has understood protected belief, or perhaps what she's been told it means.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 14/02/2025 13:47

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 14/02/2025 13:45

what is the plan for this afternoon? Who is questioning who?

JR will probably have some questions as will the panel.

MarieDeGournay · 14/02/2025 13:47

WearyAuldWumman · Today 13:18
People were asking about the pipe tune?
I think that it's The Rose of Allandale.

That was me who asked, thank you so much not only for informing me what the tune was, but for giving me a reminder of that wonderful song, and all the words.

I know it through Mary Black's rendition - it was always a favourite at her concerts and many's the time I joined in the chorus.Smile

tapadh leat/go raibh maith agat.

maltravers · 14/02/2025 13:49

Newtt · 14/02/2025 13:40

I am simply astounded that Doctor Upton freely admitted that he would perform an intimate examination on a female patient who had requested a woman doctor.

The fact that he has registered his sex with the GMC as 'Female', presumably means that the NHS as a whole support this (in my view) violation of women's rights.

The entire situation is shocking - how on earth did we (women) get here?

It also seems that UNISON have declared that 'trans-women' are women - so presumably no support from that union when women wish to be provided with their legal right to access single sex changing rooms in the work place?

I hope KS is asked whether it would, in her view, be appropriate for a TW in her team to carry out an intimate examination on a woman who has requested a female doctor. If she says yes, she’s condoning assault. No and it’s clear there are limits to DUs womanhood.

PronounssheRa · 14/02/2025 13:49

Merrymouse · 14/02/2025 13:28

I think it's more uncomfortable for NHS Fife. No experience, no relevant training - how was she supposed to advise on a contentious matter like this? There is so much incorrect advice floating around, particularly from organisations who should know better. Perhaps she just googled the RCN website.

Absolutely all roads lead to NHS Fife, but its the individuals like Isla that are being questioned in court.

The advice around changing rooms should never have been the DEI advisors role, it should have been HR and/or legal.

Chrysanthemum5 · 14/02/2025 13:49

I had a coffee with a neighbour after an exercise class today and she launched straight into discussing this case! She works in the NHS but not as a nurse or a doctor so hadn't really experienced being a CR at work. She was livid about it all and had clearly followed the case online

NebulousPants · 14/02/2025 13:50

Delurking to ask, is this now the last day until July?

hiredandsqueak · 14/02/2025 13:50

Another lurker waving hello, I've been reading from the beginning, very grateful to everyone's input on here.

MarieDeGournay · 14/02/2025 13:51

I've just thrown my head back and sung the chorus 'sweet rose of Allendale...' out loud in my kitchen, WearyAuldWumman.

It's OK, I live alone AND I have double glazing, so No Eardrums Were HarmedGrin

nauticant · 14/02/2025 13:51

Yes @NebulousPants, last day. But keep in mind that at the moment July is provisional.

OP posts:
ScribblingPixie · 14/02/2025 13:51

Thanks so much to everyone for the commentary, and for pointing the way to the petition for the repeal of the GRA, which is at 4,216 currently.

ExitPursuedByABare · 14/02/2025 13:52

De lurking to 👋

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