NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

This makes Sandie Peggie’s stance even more impressive! This nonsense has infiltrated too many institutions- NHS, civil service, unions, universities etc.

Yes he's a very good sneerer

Here’s an article (BMJ no less) which could help Dr Nebulous and also nurse ED think about a) whether sex exists and b) whether it could matter in a medical context. Would help focus the Dr’s mind if he ever needed a transfusion at the very least: www.bmj.com/content/359/bmj.j4795

Yes! Perfect casting!

@nauticant · Today 14:56

"See, this is why I'm wondering if NC is going to have to try to get a medical expert in to explain how much of the evidence from Upton and NHS Fife is not only garbage, but is being made up on the spot to defend their cases"

[From previous thread - I'm still catching up...!]

I suggested something along this line the other day.

I've watched half a dozen of these tribunals and I've never seen the claimant try to adduce expert scientific or medical evidence that sex is real; there are only two sexes; and that sex is immutable.

I don't mean a philosophy expert like Kathleen Stock - I mean a suitably qualified Dr or scientist. (Baron Winston fancy doing some pro bono work?)

I know other posters have suggested it's all obvious and all common sense, but the tribunal is a court of law requiring evidence to support your case, so I'd want to take a belt and braces approach to prove medically and scientifically that all this "I'm a woman, not a man" is a literal and metaphorical load of bolleaux

Mackenzie Crook as Upton (just because)
Sophie Thompson as ED
Jennifer Saunders as JR
Julie Walters as Grannie Peggie
David Bradley as Grandad Peggie
Ricky Gervais as husband Peggie
The actress who got shagged on Concorde in Rivals who's name I don't know as NC

Shirley Henderson would be a good Sandie.

Totally agree!

I have already posted this so am being repetitious, but I'm convinced DU will go down as a feminist icon because he is an ideological extremist. Maybe the closest he'll get to being a literal woman! He's gone on oath with shocking delusions that most people can't explain away - putting a bomb under BeKind because he himself is so obviously not kind at all! I wonder if anyone knew what a bin fire he would be on the stand?! Presumably there are observers from the NHS at the hearing - they would have had zero clue that smiley Beth was this dark when they signed up for joint legal counsel!

Then there is the setting - again perfect! Ostensibly this is about changing rooms. But by being in a hospital, we are getting the medical sphere and intimate exams as the bonus tracks! And while many people might not be bothered by a changing room, everyone can empathise with the medical. Because it the Dr is prepared to lie (to the court or himself) about biological sex, then what other lies might be told about a patient's treatment? Terrifying!

Lastly there is Sandie herself. Unblemished record, 30y in the NHS as a nurse. Comes over as calm, collected, honest and straightforward. Blonde also helps. And from the beginning walking in with nothing to hide while Upton was masked. Thank goodness for her strong opinions! Imagine if we'd had flaky Esther - this would never have happened?! SP's been so strong - no way I could have dealt with the suspensions. I'd have had a nervous breakdown. She is amazing.

But really it is Upton who has been the cherry on top of it all. So bad he's good

I suspect JR will NOT want an actual expert though. Just someone who identifies as one.

Yes - so it would be good to have him in the role having to say all those lines 😂

Been trying to catch up with the hearing and have been thinking about what a true horror this whole situation is.

Here is a man who was prepared to destroy the career of a nurse of 30 years. Which would have jeopardised her ability to make a living, pay her mortgage, affected her family, impacted in later years on her pension. He even toyed with the idea of whether he could have her arrested. All because she refused to comply with his demand that everyone around him facilitate his fantasy of being a woman.

It's actually staggering when you think about it. I have a feeling that in the distant future, he will be emblematic of transactivism. Because he's not an outlier. He embodies the ideology. He's the poster child for it.

One day we'll look back and marvel at how these men grabbed power and held it and wonder how the fuck we put up with it and why the majority didn't notice or didn't think it mattered that much.

It's a fucking horror show.

@Another2Cats i saw that when it dropped - absolutely delicious! But, this is what ppl are prepared to say for anonymous polling, not declare at work etc for fear of repercussions & association with the far right. Anonymously whispering your thoughts are very different to having the courage to challenge a man in the ladies changing room, alone & nearly a foot shorter...look what happens when you do.

Like I say - this is just my perspective from over a decade in a controversial health related field. A large part of it is you only need a few institutionally influential ppl to be captured or ideologically pre-disposed & they are able to ride roughshod over everyone else. They are also well connected & invested (in this case often have or know trans kids) so they can't back down.

Re Upton - there's not a chance in hell only one nurse took issue with his (intact!) presence in the women's changing room. Not a chance! So where are they? The guidelines have been written so no one can actually reasonably object, written by invested parties. We see the fallout of speaking up over & over, it's career suicide.

I spoiled my ballot at the GE last year. I have voted Labour all my life but my local MP is full on TRA.

A better one is - every time you write an email or letter -
imagine standing in front of a judge explaining what you have written.

Great advice from my old boss - can be heavy insurance claims in my line of work. Everything you write is some sort of legal contract - whether you realise it or not. Doesn't half sharpen up your thinking!

And don't add unecessary details in writing...

A client sent me an email about arrangements for going to a building and getting permission from the Freeholder. At the very bottom of the email she added a comment about his personality - completely irrelevant and unecessary. Embarrasingly I didn't notice this and forwarded it on to the person..... she wasn't happy and I cringed but it was a good lesson for me. Don't write anything that you wouldn't mind being forwarded on to others!

Lucy Hunter Blackburn was watching today and said the witness looked absolutely terrified at being unable to answer the simplest of questions honestly. My sympathy is tempered by how she tried to land Sandie in it, but she should never have been put in that position. Another one NHSFife has totally and utterly let down. It's the senior management who should bear the brunt, not nurses like her.

Emma Watson as JR

Actually the more I think about the more annoyed I am with "nice" Esther. Wasn't she just being as vague as possible even about medical things to avoid saying anything that would be of any use or cause any offence. She'd defo be in Slitherin

Huge problem with the (deliberate) lack of clarity in the language. So many ppl I speak to think a transwoman is a woman who want to be a man!

I think she's trying to hedge her bets, her employers have clearly nailed their colours to the mast, so if she wants to keep her job she has to comply, but she doesn't want to outright lie so goes for the 'im just a nurse ' angle. She can see the bus, and is trying not to go under it, but in doing so is making herself look an absolute fool.

Or JR - for her voice? And because all other suggestions for JR seem to be rather unfairly over 60!

Can we cast Meatloaf as anyone?

They're scared.

I'm possibly outing myself with this, but what the heck.

About 3 yrs ago, I went to the Vic to have unexplained bleeding checked out. The woman gynae I was supposed to see was off. I was greeted by a man who told me that he was a consultant. Fair enough.

He'd give me a scan and - if he saw a polyp - would remove it. Okay...

I stressed that I was in my 60s and had never given birth. (3 very early miscarriages.)

To my shock, he started cutting without pain relief. During it, I asked him if he'd stick a scalpel up a penis with no pain relief.The staff in the corridor heard my screams. He finally stopped: "I can't get the one on the cervix."

He left. The female nurse gave me paper towels to clean myself up. My thighs were covered in blood. Blood on the couch. A puddle of blood on the floor.

I was own my own (recently widowed) and in shock. Cleaned myself, the couch and the floor.

Heard another nurse in the corridor speaking to my nurse: "Is she all right?"

My nurse came back in. "I've been discussing this with my colleagues. We don't think it's right..." but there was no intervention during it all. Obviously scared for their jobs.

Afterwards the doctor got me to sign some kind of consent form for a D&C. No idea whether it covered what he'd already done.

Drove home. Accidentally went through a red light. Made it home. Went to bed. Hallucinated that my husband came into the bedroom to check on me.

At the my next appointment, the female consultant gave me a D&C and polypectomy (several, including uterine) under GA at the QM.

Last year, the problem returned. Saw the female gynae - she was brilliant. Was passed to minor ops for a hysteroscopy and polypectomy. Was in terror...a male name was on the letter...but (thank God) it was a different male, an older chap - and he was brilliant. This time, it was a full operating theatre where all the other team members were women.

Local anaesthetic. No polyps found. Mirena coil inserted to prevent uterine cancer. It hurt a bit when the speculum went in, but otherwise pain free.

At QM, all the nurses seemed much happier and more relaxed. At the first procedure in the Vic the atmosphere was completely different.

I would be, too. That is one of the best books I have read on data, ever. Even without its reference to women. But then that makes it the BEST ever. Such clear data.

As for the experts they ought to have the head consultant of each department of the hospital in Fife to answer true or false:

Dr Upton is a biological woman.