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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/02/2025 15:59

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

OP posts:
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35
borntobequiet · 13/02/2025 22:13

I’m rather fascinated by the way institutions seem to be so vulnerable to these beliefs.

Religion of the conventional sort seems to start off with a grassroots belief that spreads and then consolidates itself over a long period of time into organisations, structures and practices that sustain it, sometimes involving ordeals or discomfort to adherents, and requiring the internalisation and expression of core tenets and doctrines (I was a cradle Catholic so all of this is familiar to me, but obviously I’ve never made a study of it).

However, this feels different. It’s not organic, it’s parasitical. It came from nowhere and infected existing large public (and private)organisations very rapidly, using their structures and hijacking their core beliefs and disciplines to promulgate itself. It’s groupthink on steroids. Perhaps large organisations are by their very nature vulnerable to batshittery.

Skyellaskerry · 13/02/2025 22:13

Another2Cats · 13/02/2025 20:23

I've haven't read the entirety of these threads (so I apologise if I'm repeating a point that has already been made.

"an explicit policy like this... so it's Dr Upton's choice which changing room to use"

Any such policy would be unlawful. This is clearly stated in The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992.

There is a specific section that deals with the situation where a person needs to change into special clothing for the purpose of work. Basically, it says that employers must provide separate changing rooms for men and women.

It says:

Facilities for changing clothing
24.—(1) Suitable and sufficient facilities shall be provided for any person at work in the workplace to change clothing in all cases where—
(a)the person has to wear special clothing for the purpose of work; and
(b)the person can not, for reasons of health or propriety, be expected to change in another room.
(2) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), the facilities mentioned in that paragraph shall not be suitable unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety and the facilities are easily accessible, of sufficient capacity and provided with seating.

This has been mentioned but if I remember the discussion right, it’s all become mixed up with the definitions of man, woman, sex and gender. I think the 1992 regs will have meant sex segregation of the old fashioned kind when it says men and women!

GailBlancheViola · 13/02/2025 22:21

Just checking in for tomorrow. My thanks to the sterling work of those posters starting these threads and posting the transcript of Tribunal Tweets.

Another2Cats · 13/02/2025 22:22

Caerulea · 13/02/2025 21:57

This is the kind of thing I was talking about. GC ppl are in a bit of an echo chamber - bear in mind MN is one of the few places you can even discuss this, don't even try it on Reddit for example.

"GC ppl are in a bit of an echo chamber"

Not necessarily.

Yougov published the results from one of its surveys on this two days ago. These are the first few paragraphs of a very long article

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/51545-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-202425

Where does the British public stand on transgender rights in 2024/25?

[Edited out irrelevant stuff about the USA and Reform in the UK]

Now a new YouGov study, the fourth in a series reaching back to 2018, shows an increased scepticism towards transgender rights across the board – and particularly in the two and a half years since our previous wave of this study.

Notable in this most recent study – conducted in mid-December – is the growing resistance on transgender rights among those groups that are typically more permissive on the issue, like women and young people.

In fact, the only question on which women now take the permissive view on transgender rights is saying that people should be able to change their gender socially, although at 55% this still represents an eight point drop since the 2022 survey.

When it comes to whether or not people should be able to change their gender legally, there has been a crossover among women. While in 2022 women supported allowing people to change their gender legally by 44% to 32%, these figures have since shifted to 37% who continue to be in favour but 42% now opposed.

While 18-24 year olds remain the most permissive group when it comes to trans rights, there has likewise been an increase in scepticism.

In 2022, there had only been net negativity among the young on the three questions about providing transgender treatment to under-16s, as well as transgender women being able to participate in women’s sporting events. As of December 2024, this sentiment now extends to transgender men participating in men’s sports, as well as a reluctance to make it easier to change your gender legally, and resistance to the use of gendered changing rooms by transgender people who have not undergone gender reassignment surgery.

When it comes to the key questions of whether people should be able to socially identify as a different gender, the number of 18-24 year olds who say they should – 61% – remains almost exactly the same as in 2022. However, the number who say they should not has risen eight points to 25% over the same time period.

And when it comes to whether you should be allowed to legally change your gender, support among the young has actively diminished: while 50% still say so, this has fallen seven points since the prior study. At the same time, belief that you should not be allowed to change your gender legally has increased by a full 16 points, to 36%.

The results come at a time where transgender issues have been increasing in prominence. Our survey shows that 41% of Britons say they have paid “a lot” or “a fair amount” of attention to the issue in politics and the media, up from 35% at the time of the last study.

How many Britons think you should be able to change your gender?

On the core question of whether Britons believe someone should be able to socially identify as a different gender, the public still tend to say that they should, by 49% to 35% who say they should not. However, the former stance is down six points from 2022, while the latter stance is up ten points.

[The article continues with a lot more detail]

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17
Hermyknee · 13/02/2025 22:23

Notaflippinclue · 13/02/2025 21:12

Is there actually any man or woman who thinks their elderly bedridden/demented mum should be in a bed next to a grown man on a poorly staffed ward at night

…or their bedridden teenage daughter.

ThreeWordHarpy · 13/02/2025 22:26

The discussion that this is endemic in the NHS has intersected in my mind with the Trump Executive Order.

Is it not possible for Wes to issue a directive/ regulation (don’t know the legalities) that tells the NHS to make their policies comply with the appropriate actual legislation not Stonelaw and differentiate properly between sex and gender? The wording of the Trump EO was excellent and I’m sure it could be adapted for use over here.

Namechangefordaughterevasion · 13/02/2025 22:28

@Hermyknee

So true. At 20 my DD was very ill with anorexia. It fucked her whole body image and self perception. The last thing she would have needed was a deluded and manipulative man in the bed next to her.

StellaAndCrow · 13/02/2025 22:28

ThatDaringMintCritic · 13/02/2025 16:21

Yes, doctors.net.co.uk is a real thing. From what a pro-SP friend told me there are mixed views. A lot of women doctors supporting SP, some male doctors agreeing with DU that women can't always insist on seeing a women doctor / nurse. Quite the bunfight. Be interesting to see if/how the case is covered in the medical press.

I've just checked, and any threads related to the case have been deleted or frozen.

NotAGentleReminder · 13/02/2025 22:30

Already signed. I hope it does better than the last one.

ETA: look at the map of where the highest number of signatures are!

EasternStandard · 13/02/2025 22:32

Cismyfatarse · 13/02/2025 21:26

Scottish government being pushed into taking a stance. Trying to avoid it but it is not going to go away.

It needs this. No one so far at the tribunal has taken responsibility

SqueakyDinosaur · 13/02/2025 22:33

I made this for myself so I can find who was talking when but I hope some others might find it helpful (tho' probably not especially accurate!). It's from an Excel but I can't see how to post it as a nice tidy table, which is annoying (if anyone knows, tell me and I'll repost).

Thread 1 starts 13/10/2024 09:36
Pre-discussion: ET starts 03/02/25, 11:19)

Thread 2 starts 04/02/2025 11:37
SP (JR ends 15:41): MF

Thread 3 starts 05/02/2025 12:27
MF:non-disclosure: SP family

Thread 4 starts 06/02/2025 11:39
Late start: DU

Thread 5 starts 06/02/2025 17:34
Late start: DU

Thread 6 starts 07/02/2025 12:34
Late start: DU

Thread 7 starts 08/02/2025 15:40
DU

Thread 8 starts 10/02/2025 10:54
DU

Thread 9 starts 10/02/2025 12:57
DU

Thread 10 starts 10/02/2025 15:51
DU

Thread 11 starts 10/02/2025 23:21
DU

Thread 12 starts 11/02/2025 11:57
DU: tech fails

Thread 13 starts 11/02/2025 15:38
DU

Thread 14 starts 12/02/2025 11:30
DU: non-disclosure

Thread 15 starts 12/02/2025 15:50
DU: non-disclosure

Thread 16 starts 13/02/2025 10:57
ED

Thread 17 starts 13/02/2025 15:59
ED

Bannedontherun · 13/02/2025 22:33

This is my narrative of why this case is in the court and will not be settled without a ruling.

The primary issue is that Sandie stood her ground on her right to have a women only space to change in, that she had used without a problem for thirty years.

She had no legal concept of her rights or even knew about her employers policy, until a man started popping in to her female changing room.

It turned out that the policy of her employers made it impossible to object to this man so she lurked outside when she could until he was gone.

So did other nurses. That is clear

She got pissed off on the third occasion and tried to explain to him why he should not be there,

DR Uppity dashed off to anyone who would listen to pre empt a complaint about him and stop any collective objection from women. That was clear in his oral evidence.

and in that he was successful

so the fiasco of conviction without trial ensued

With accusatory e mails and the like circulated to anybody who cared to read not least by a consultant.

Sandie was by then suspended and isolated.

Somehow or other along the way it got picked up by a person who with deep pockets who funded the legal challenge.

And somehow or other “poof” she had a top draw legal team out of fucking nowhere

<swoon>

of course there is no underground organised and funded resistance movement going on .

OBVS

So here is the best bit.

Because Sandie has no worries about the financial consequences of her legal action SHE DOES NOT HAVE TO SETTLE OUT OF COURT.

She gets to hold the whole damn kit and caboodles Scottish hierarchy’s feet against the fire.

And what is more delightful Naomi gets to strut her stuff to inflict the maximum amount of scrutiny to refuse to condense her examination to make the enemy produce every last detail of complicity to prolong the hearing.

And as we know she stays up all night works across all her weekends

just to light a fools way to a dusty death.

And what a bunch of fools that the public can see they all are

And for Sandie i hope she will be forever nurtured in the inner enclave of witches because she deserves it.

JanesLittleGirl · 13/02/2025 22:38

Exempt some devastating evidence tomorrow, I am seriously impressed by the lack of documentation, formal procedures, expectation that someone with no training could lead an investigation, no attempt to capture both sides of a conflict before conducting an investigation and pre-emptive suspension can be regarded as due process.

This is not a car crash. It is a great, big airliner crashing on the M25 at rush hour.

guinnessguzzler · 13/02/2025 22:44

You know it's serious when the Mumsnetters are breaking out Excel @SqueakyDinosaur NHS Fife really are fucked!

PeteReturns · 13/02/2025 22:45

“So did other nurses. That is clear”
ive Not been able to keep up with all the threads and tweets, where is it made clear other nurses were waiting outside/ making them self scarce as your post suggests?
Not disagreeing with you just would like to see this for myself, the rest of your analysis is great.

do we know who is funding this?
Julie Bindel has just been on Andrew Golds podcast saying it was JK who funded her defamation case against pink news, which she won. Allegations against the editor and his husband have since come to light, all very sordid.

crumpet · 13/02/2025 22:46

AlisonWhatIsTheMatter · 13/02/2025 19:04

I can’t wait for AI Doctors to take over then, think I’ll have FAR more confidence rather than a ‘captured’ witch finder general!

AI doctors will probably be programmed for inclusivity

HootyMcBoobs · 13/02/2025 22:47

Where did my link go for the REPEAL THE GRA petition?
Are we not allowed to post links?

Okay, for anyone wanting to sign, just google REPEAL THE GRA and the petition will come up.

This is bonkers! People have free will whether or not to sign a fucking petition.

Harassedevictee · 13/02/2025 22:48

@HootyMcBoobs there is a blanket policy on not linking to petitions on threads. There is a petitions thread so what you do is post on that then post a link to the thread.

A bit convoluted but it keeps threads clear of petitions.

AgathaMystery · 13/02/2025 22:49

Bannedontherun · 13/02/2025 22:33

This is my narrative of why this case is in the court and will not be settled without a ruling.

The primary issue is that Sandie stood her ground on her right to have a women only space to change in, that she had used without a problem for thirty years.

She had no legal concept of her rights or even knew about her employers policy, until a man started popping in to her female changing room.

It turned out that the policy of her employers made it impossible to object to this man so she lurked outside when she could until he was gone.

So did other nurses. That is clear

She got pissed off on the third occasion and tried to explain to him why he should not be there,

DR Uppity dashed off to anyone who would listen to pre empt a complaint about him and stop any collective objection from women. That was clear in his oral evidence.

and in that he was successful

so the fiasco of conviction without trial ensued

With accusatory e mails and the like circulated to anybody who cared to read not least by a consultant.

Sandie was by then suspended and isolated.

Somehow or other along the way it got picked up by a person who with deep pockets who funded the legal challenge.

And somehow or other “poof” she had a top draw legal team out of fucking nowhere

<swoon>

of course there is no underground organised and funded resistance movement going on .

OBVS

So here is the best bit.

Because Sandie has no worries about the financial consequences of her legal action SHE DOES NOT HAVE TO SETTLE OUT OF COURT.

She gets to hold the whole damn kit and caboodles Scottish hierarchy’s feet against the fire.

And what is more delightful Naomi gets to strut her stuff to inflict the maximum amount of scrutiny to refuse to condense her examination to make the enemy produce every last detail of complicity to prolong the hearing.

And as we know she stays up all night works across all her weekends

just to light a fools way to a dusty death.

And what a bunch of fools that the public can see they all are

And for Sandie i hope she will be forever nurtured in the inner enclave of witches because she deserves it.

Love this.

I wonder who could be funding this Scottish case in Scotland with this Scottish nurse.

Hum. ❤️

TriesNotToBeCynical · 13/02/2025 22:49

NotAGentleReminder · 13/02/2025 22:30

Already signed. I hope it does better than the last one.

ETA: look at the map of where the highest number of signatures are!

Edited

I can't help thinking that asking for GRA amendment to respect the rights of women born women while granting some rights to transsexual people (wording revised to not offend either group) would get more support.

Lark1ane · 13/02/2025 22:50

Hooty The monitors will have reported it. There's a dedicated petitions board at the back off in a cupboard somewhere on MN where you will be told it should be placed.

Bannedontherun · 13/02/2025 22:52

PeteReturns · 13/02/2025 22:45

“So did other nurses. That is clear”
ive Not been able to keep up with all the threads and tweets, where is it made clear other nurses were waiting outside/ making them self scarce as your post suggests?
Not disagreeing with you just would like to see this for myself, the rest of your analysis is great.

do we know who is funding this?
Julie Bindel has just been on Andrew Golds podcast saying it was JK who funded her defamation case against pink news, which she won. Allegations against the editor and his husband have since come to light, all very sordid.

DR Uppity in his own notes and oral evidence observed there was another nurse outside the door of the changing room.

It is not a stretch of the imagination that was what was going on all the time

UnhappyAndYouKnowIt · 13/02/2025 22:53

One of the emails ED mentioned made it very clear that DU had been around to all and sundry giving details of the situation before an investigation was underway. How many people did he influence while Sandie was ostracised?

Even after emailing him to say very distressing but mustn't discuss", ED makes reference to verbal additions that he's added to the record.

Hermyknee · 13/02/2025 22:53

This is the BBC bite size page for Scottish highers that Dr Upton may want a refresher on:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zb6ypg8/revision/1

His hospital workplace has these values:
Care and compassion
Dignity and respect
Openness, honesty and responsibility
Quality and teamwork

He has failed in all values as he is insistent to patients and staff he is a woman. He wants to go against all his biology and medical exams to insist he’s a woman - but it what his patients know and think he is paramount. That’s his responsibility to be honest and respectful.

Hormonal influence on puberty - Hormonal control of reproduction - Higher Human Biology Revision - BBC Bitesize

Find out how hormones play a crucial role in in the control of reproduction in Higher Human Biology

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zb6ypg8/revision/1

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