NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

What rights do transgender people not have relative to other people?

What rights don’t transsexual people have?
The pandering and half way house be kind thinking is what’s caused all this, just no.
The GRA is a lie, nobody has or needs a legal gender, it’s nonsense, the only thing that matters in law and life is sex, which is recorded when you are born.
Legal gender is always a fiction, and nobody should have the right to falsify legal documents with fairy stories no matter how mentally ill they might be.
Repeal the GRA.

Your post has prompted me to post this for anyone who hasn't seen it before -

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

https://gendercriticalwoman.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/iglyo_v3-1-2.pdf

They don't have the right to compel belief in others and that pissses them right off.

Although as we see from this and other cases, they are trying to get it.

I thought that was a particular low point and I have very little medical knowledge! In combination with the poor knowledge of HR processes it wasn't a good look.
To be fair this was perhaps forgiveable only 3 weeks into the job and I suspect an experienced HR person would have struggled with the loose cannons that DU and KS seem to have been. KS jumped the gun but then again ED didn't exactly try very hard to rein her in.

Question please for those in the know:
Is Sandie in RCN as her union and if so are they supporting her?

box ticking - the OT is part of the HR policy process for the investigation that wasn't started except it had apart from the HR

Maybe a piece of paper to say they can call themselves a woman in a, b, c administrative circumstances, but it would be a crime to do so in x, y, z circumstances? I know that is absolutely not acceptable to most in this forum, but if you want a 2 million signature petition you would have to be more conciliatory.

One of the pesky newspapers intent on doing some truthful reporting of the Tribunal, including referring to Upton as a biological male, has been complained about for wrong speak.

...we have been told that at least one complaint will be lodged with the Independent Press Standards Organisation. We await to see what IPSO may or may not decide about our approach.

In support of our case is the fact that the vexed question of Dr Upton's pronouns was actually discussed at a preliminary hearing in the tribunal in January 2025. You can read a full report about it here, on the website of Steen & Co Employment Solicitors.

The key part, however, is that "the judge ruled that the Claimant [Ms Peggie] and her legal representatives could use male pronouns whereas he acknowledged that the Respondents [NHS Fife and Dr Upton] would use female ones".
www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/comment/scottish-express-referring-dr-beth-34670335?

I disagree. Don't think there can be any law that allows falsification of sex without this causing a mess in practice. I think the whole thing has to go, GRA, PC of GR, being able to change 'gender marker' on documents. People who identify as trans have rights just like everyone else. They don't need extra rights to legitimise a pretence. I know this sounds harsh but I don't see any way that it's fair or safe to keep in law the right to pretend to be not the sex you are and for that to not have detrimental effects on others. Or on yourself. I think all the medical interventions should be stopped too, and should never have been done. It's medical abuse of vulnerable and disturbed people and it got as far as children being growth stunted and potentially sterilised, never mind young women and men being permanently altered by cross sex hormones and surgically mutilated. It all needs to stop.

ED seems to have had so much nonsense training that she believes the tribunal is testing her on her ability to give the TRA answers. If only she can remember to say ‘of course I don’t know, I’m not trans’ suitably humbly, she’ll have showed them she’s thinking right.

I used to think that a few years ago, but the shark has firmly been jumped over by now.

Just dress how you want and get over yourself tends to be my view these days.

I know we always say it, but when this is finally resolved THIS is the one that must be dramatised.

I can actually visualise it in my head.

I hope JK Rowling writes it and sets up a production company to make it.

Sc 1 (Interior, chaotic living room) Sandie running round like a blue arsed fly, sorting out her mam and dad, dog's going mental, giving hubby instructions for the day, telling him to get off his arse and fix the dripping tap, tidying round the lounge, chatting to daughter on phone, a whirlwind, before she sets off for work, not a care in the world.

Sc 2 Beth Upton (interior posh house) getting ready for work, carefully applying make up, examining face in mirror from every angle. "She's a lady' playing in background.

Sc 3 Ext GV of hospital, ominous music.

I mean I could write it, it's got everything.

THIS MUST HAPPEN.

Re KS jumping the gun and ED not really challenging her/calling her out on it: KS is a Consultant. Consultants basically run hospitals, except where Trusts have put in really draconian measures to stop that (e.g. at my local London hospital they took away all their individual secretaries and installed a call centre, which is hugely frustrating but does mean less power for the consultants), and they still do pretty much run their departments. A nurse, however senior, who goes up against a consultant, will lose in the normal run of things, as we can see from the enormous courage and resilience that's been required of SP to get this far.

Also, it's not clear if ED is a purely A&E specialist nurse. If she has cross-departmental responsibility for other nurses, that will weaken her influence in A&E.

I got the feeling that ED had been instructed that she couldn't answer certain questions because she wasn't considered "expert" enough.

Is that the one with Dr Upton's hypothetical collection of garden gnomes?

Honestly some of the closing statements NC makes I am sure I can hear the Eastenders beats after..

That looks like more rights than comparable citizens to me however, this is not the thread for that.

The Judge will make a determination of the sex of the man posing as a Doctor, as stated today.

Shit - I've just remembered it's book club next week and I'm less than 50 pages in. It would be really slack of me not to finish the book this month as it was my suggestion 🤭. I'm off to bed now to try and cram in a few chapters that I should have been reading instead of the many, many threads, articles etc that I have read.

Interesting - I thought she sounded like a bit of a flake who would blow any old way in a strong breeze. Being as vague as possible to avoid saying anything that might resemble an opinion. Trying to stay on the fence and say nice things about everyone.

That's the problem with being "nice" - it is not actually kind. Nice people who never stick up for what's right or have an opinion are actually awful to work with. They ignore things and hope it all goes away - often the opposite happens although maybe not as spectacularly as this!?

If I'd worked with her for 30 years and she didn't push on following the policy properly to keep it fair, I'd be pretty disgusted with her

She's a human mic drop.

I love her.

I suggested a book for my book club and then couldn't make the date. Everyone else hated (and I mean hated) the book and I felt like I was going to be run out of town.

(Before anyone asks, it is far too outing to give book title).

Is that the one with Dr Upton's hypothetical collection of garden gnomes?
@PachacutisBadAuntie That's the one!