NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

ED - yes, I did

NC - I've been referring to those as the missing patient incident and the resus incident, I will be referring to those quite a bit, (expands with details)

ED - understand

NC - turn to page 533, have you seen this document before

https://www.nhs.uk/health-assessment-tools/calculate-your-body-mass-index/calculate-bmi-for-adults/enter-height-and-weight

Does not ask sex.

I agree BeLemonNow, I'm just commenting that (in my experience) it's very deliberate not to communicate such a policy, so that staff don't have an opportunity to challenge it. Until they, personally, are in the midst of the harassment, and now we are seeing just how that plays out.

For those worrying about vat on crowdfunding - dont.

• If the donor doesn’t get any form of reward, then the money will qualify as a donation and will not be subject to VAT.""

Absolutely.

Infuriating that so many women are left with debilitating symptoms after anaemia and only once they fall below an already too low threshold so they get anyone to even admit that's the issue!

Men with a low hb on the other hand....

Do we finally find out who knew what and when now?

Don't be. I work in NHSS - my senior nursing colleagues are well aware that this isn't the case. This is a captured and/or terrified nurse who's well aware she messed up and is digging herself a big old deep hole as she tries to justifies her cock-up.

IANAL so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought witnesses were not allowed to hear or read the testimony of those who precede them before giving their own?

ED - yes I think I had seen it

NC - roughly when

ED - no, sorry i can't, I think it was after 4 January, I was asking DU to give a formal statement

NC - and is that what you got

ED - I don't think it was as much as that,

NC - lets go look at the formal statement

I do like to see nice irony used as a term in discussing blood tests.

The BMI calculator for children asks for sex.

https://www.nhs.uk/health-assessment-tools/calculate-your-body-mass-index/calculate-bmi-for-children-teenagers/select-sex

'Sex is needed to work out the BMI of anyone under 18 years old.
This is because there are different growth charts for females and males.'

ED - I didn't see that until after,

NC - we've been calling these docs 'hate incident' and 'formal complaint' when did you see these

ED - I saw it after 23 January (implies formal complaint) <<<sound dropped missed 90 seconds>>

Interpreting them a nurse might not know but surely they know they are different between sexes?

I know when my husband and I go for health checks that our tables are different as we are different sexes. I can’t necessarily interpret the reasons for the differences but I know they are different.

I don't understand why they've removed sex for adults when women have higher fat levels. It's going to skew the results.

I am only reading here intermittently and not following anywhere else, but I am aghast at the posts that indicate that a NURSE said that she "did not understand" when the barrister said that every cell in the body indicated male or female, or something like that (actually red blood cells, having no nucleus, don't but all others do). She appeared not to know what DNA/chromosomes are? Can that really be true? The NMC needs to have a word with her about competence, I believe.

If you want to see who’s a woman check who is being thrown to the wolves.

As it happens I have a desk filing cabinet with the family passports and birth certs etc in it. In DD's elderly redbook "Birth Details" has a Newborn examination.
Under Testes it says ring 'N" for girls

NC - your interview with AG on IX, answer to q9, the statement you were subsequently given in April was the longer document yes

ED - I'm sorry.....

NC - let's break that down. This document is 'hate incident' and you'll see that it's all about the incident on Christmas eve.

💯

Ah thanks 🙏 👍 thought I was being unclear. That's awful I was assuming simple incompetence/group think.

She's lying.

After today, she'll be going on long-term sick leave, so the public will be safe, from her at least.

NC - you must have had that on 23 jan, well before April.

ED - I must have

NC - now the other document 'formal complaint', has quite a lot of common material with 'hate incident' but has quite a lot of additional content, DU's timeline of incidents with SP, 2 CR incidents

Wait! Is this the same plummy annoying woman who was sat next to Mr. Andrew Hochhauser at that tribunal?

This is actually from Scotland:
Gender-specific-reference-ranges-for-blood-tests-1.pdf

Oh yes