NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

I'd imagine JR is going to go with there was in fact one investigation and it just had 2 parts, a gathering evidence phase and then an analytical phase. I don't know what the panel will make of that.

You are correct. Male genital surgery to create a neo-vagina does not remove the prostate, as it can cause incontinence. Hence, trans identified males who have had gender affirming surgery still need to have prostate checks.

It makes it even worse, in retrospect, that in connection with the CR conversation JR put it to SP that she COULD HAVE JUST SAID NOTHING

There was no way for SP to win, no wonder a prison scenario came to mind.

It seriously doesn't take a senior doctor know that the refererance ranges can differ according sex for some tests.

If an A&E nurse, and ED said she does do clinical work, doesn't know that normal haemoglobin levels differ between males & females, she really need some training. Same for hematocrit, red blood cells and others.

No wonder the health of the poor Scots has ummered in recent years.

Is that code of conduct the NMC code of conduct? Still catching up and hoping the code of conduct is clarified further.

It also speaks to the hold that Upton had over the people in this department, and how manipulative he was, that they're now afraid to acknowledge bio sex.

So, Drs and nurses who don’t know the differences between sexes; a nurse who doesn’t know that a haircut can’t change your DNA and a KC that doesn’t know that witnesses can have conflicting evidence put to one another…

has this tribunal just been phenomenally unlucky or have the professions gone to the dogs (…the dogs I tell you!)

She knows fine well.

I'm just that senior nurses in Righteousland consider it possible that a haircut or some earrings could change your DNA!

@HipTightOnions I mean that the tribunal claim that Sandie was harassed in the changing rooms by Dr. Upton's presence.

ED has said there was no communication with staff so Sandie would not have known that a person with male features let's say would be there. ED has also said that she thought it was understandable that Sandie found the situation upsetting and distressing (in contrast to someone complaining about a black woman which is a comparison trans activists often use).

Imho putting staff in a situation where it is understandable they will be upset and distressed without their knowledge is harassment. That is sufficient to convince me of harassment and then victimisation.

I would also argue that having found out about any policy having a negative impact on any staff you should revisit that policy - not just say "nope it's a policy!".

Yes, there's good evidence to suggest lower references for iron deficiency is possibly/probably because the way they set the reference ranges - by sampling lots of people and taking an average view - does not discount the fact that women have probably been anaemic since forever and so the average may be too low. So infuriating that women who finally get diagnosed and treated with anaemia now have to fall even further to meet a threshold 😔

However, there remains good evidence that male and female humans would still have different platelets, cell volumes and viscosity etc

It's actually quite terrifying.

2 years ago, the red books still had girl and boy centile graphs, helpfully printed in pink and blue. I've not looked at any more recent ones.

Yes. She called in 2004 and highlights appearing for Garden Court in Bailey v Stonewall & Garden Court on her credentials. She is an English KC so Fife/Andrew Watson would need approval to instruct. Could probably name some better Scottish Seniors to do the job but they would have seen SP had an English barrister so wanted to match it.

I find it very telling that the witness says she had no basis to exclude DU.... but did not feel able to even ask DU not to go in the CR. Even if she didn't think she had a legal basis to tell him to stay out, why didn't she ask, in order to keep the peace in the team? Was she scared of being the next bigot, scared of causing offence, scared of DU...

Adding: sex relevant because BMI for women and men is affected by larger fat content in women's bodies - particularly when I was checked out for possible uterine cancer last year. (You're more likely to develop uterine cancer if your fat levels are too high - more oestrogen retained by the body.)

Yes and it shows just how important this case is, not just for this department in this hospital but everywhere in the NHS where this ideology has taken hold.

I'm guessing it's because x-rays are dangerous for babies.

I had chest x-rays with lead apron to protect bump. "We worry more in early stages, but we'll put a lead apron over the bump"

But apparently this is the utopia that will come for us all, on The Right Side of History.

I can hardly wait.

Interpreting blood results and understanding the normal reference ranges is more of a doctor's role than a nurse's, tbf. Apologies to all the nurses who do know about difference ref ranges for males and females.

Of course, not trying to disagree; just thought that one of the accepted ranges being due to misogyny was a nice irony.

NC - page 277, email between HR people , you are copied, advice that JH had given you, advising others of it

ED - yes

NC - is that an accurate account of the convo

ED - yes, and I think Jackie would have had access to the Datix

NC - does that email contain any info new to you

ED - its 3 Jan, I'd seen the Datix, most that I already knew. And advice was what she had already given me to keep SP and DU on different shifts, that all makes sense

NC - we can see, by now, you must have known the whole story, including the two allegations on patient care

Professions cant have gone to the dogs, people have been saying their dogs can sex people.

It makes me wonder what Upton was like to work with generally.

Having studied logic I would also happily appear in court and explain the argument "I am biological and I am a woman" is utter rubbish.