NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

Ok she won't know what to do

Who does?

Legislation is not clear on whether DU gets access

Politicians very quiet so far

'I wouldn't have put myself in that situation'
I gasped out loud at this. How dare she?!

ED - I was clinical nurse manager for dept.

Yet doesn't appear to understand what sex is. Or is lying on oath.

I am just catching up.

This is NHS Scotland Suspension Policy https://workforce.nhs.scot/media/ytbjqetj/conduct-policy-guide-to-suspension-1-2-last-updated-september-2022.pdf SP should have been given time to arrange representation.

It includes a link to a check list https://workforce.nhs.scot/media/ndulhi5a/conduct-policy-suspension-checklist-last-updated-march-2020.doc
The top item is “What the employee needs to be informed of by the suspending manager
Their right to representation by a Trade Union Representative or to be accompanied by a workplace colleague throughout all stages of suspension”

JR wants SP isolated and the only one who has any inkling there might be an issue.

NC - that's the exchange from this am, between EP and you on boxing day. You said first heard about it from this email

ED -y

NC - you said you didn't know who was involved, only DU

ED - yes no name

NC - looking at EP email, reads fast it's obvious so far EP has only heard DU

My 13 year old nephew had an x-ray last year and they asked if he was born a male or female they told his dad that it was relevant and they have to ask everyone, so how is it not relevant for blood?

How can a nurse honestly say she does not know whether hair make up and clothes would change your DNA sex. Imagine how that would work in criminal evidence.

NC - side of story?

ED - yes

NC - you said it's unacceptable, what was

ED - no staff member should be distressed

NC - you only know DU's pov, other staff may also be upset

ED - the senior charge nurse on shift saw no upset and knew nothing of it

I'm so sorry...

No. Apparently she is only a nurse so can't comment on whether clothes or a haircut might change your DNA.

They would have to find a consultant to ascertain the sex. Nurses are apparently not qualified to sex people.

NC - senior charge nurse saw no upset in whole dept?

ED - none

NC - if DU had to go in extreme distress to the office, describe the route

ED - along exterior corridor and up, not through dept, through observation ward.

NC - if DU had gone round whole dept before

I wonder if even the concept of excluding DU was enough to cook ED's goose, and another reason to start a second investigation

I thought a man couldn't receive blood from a woman who had been pregnant.
Surely this is important news to medical staff.

No wonder Sandie was described as stern earlier; as a woman of normal intelligence and with professional competence it must have been appalling to work with this bunch of ignorance nincompoops. Male doctors who think popping on girl clothes makes you biologically female nurses who don't know what sex is...

C - troponin levels, diff range for men/women to do with heart attack?
ED - it's the same for men and women, ascending or descending levels. Only test I can think of is pregnancy - beta hcg.
NC - normal range of red blood cells differs by sex?
ED - not my expertise

This bit surely can't be true?? An experienced nurse who doesn't know that male and female haemoglobin levels are different?

NC - heading to EPs office lots of people would have seen?

ED - not sure what route that would be?

NC DU said he wen't around

JR - not sure we can discuss others evidence

J - yes we can

NC - you would have expected it to be noticed if he'd gone round the dept looking distressed?

And in other words, when a bloke comes in who says 'I'm a woman' she says 'yes dear' and then quietly treats as male anyway.

But with Upton she found herself up S**t Creek without a paddle, b/c she was told that Upton's self declaration must be taken as fact even though everyone in the department knows he's lying.

This is a failing by the employer surely

No policy, no clear way to manage the issue

SP shouldn't be suspended

Paging Dr Robert Winston! I think the relevant course content from nursing and medical degrees would be interesting too.

🤦🏼‍♀️

It would explain increased waiting times if this is the new NHS policy

I'm starting to feel a bit better about this judge

JR - not sure we can discuss others evidence
J - yes we can
😄

No training on how to handle complaints and investigations for managers new to post