NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

The law?

I'm feeling quite a lot of alignment with Trump right now and his desire to ditch all DEI jobs, if this is where it leads us.

I genuinely want to know how many patients have been harmed by refusal to accept that sex matters in healthcare.

Incredibly I think she did 🤯

ED - was told by IB that DU identified as a woman and had to be allowed to use F CR NC - you say nothing to support exclusion, SP says you said you hadn't got anywhere. Were you aligned on this with SP ED - I said effectively I couldn't help. NC - you were hoping to stand up

ED - there was nothing I could use to exclude DU,

No shit

I bet he's on here

These answers are astonishing.

I’m here!

NC - for your nurse

ED - I wanted a solution

NC - you wanted IB to say there was a way of excluding DU?

ED - I wanted to know what the policy was to make a decision

NC - SP says you said you'd get it sorted, then

JR - objects, witness did not say she'd get it sorted. causes

J - she is a senior Dr. It's difficult for this witness to answer these qu, she's not got a Dr degree

But we've already had expert testimony from someone with "Dr degree"... oh hang on...

So, is she genuinely expecting people to believe that if a patient comes in to a&e unconscious (for example), none of the nurses would know which catheter to use, or where to put it, until said patient came round and told them their sex?

Feeling quite bad for ED, she was put in an impossible situation and is struggling to rationalise it even now.

I'm dropping in before next meeting. Please, somebody tell me this is a witticism and not an actual enquiry…

Please.

See, this is why I'm wondering if NC is going to have to try to get a medical expert in to explain how much of the evidence from Upton and NHS Fife is not only garbage, but is being made up on the spot to defend their cases.

JR - confusion.

R's solicitor audible comments and proceedings stall.

R's sol apologises

NC - You said you hadn't been able to get it sorted.

ED - SP approached I looked into it. Could find no policy to support excluding DU from F CR.

NC - investigation you began.

NC - SP says you said you'd get it sorted, then JR - objects, witness did not say she'd get it sorted. causes

Confusion indeed.

I was going to derail -

'Historical instruments?? It's Smetana, not Monte flippin verdi!'

but I suppose a lot has changed in tech since the 1870s so I won't make an eejit of myself by posting that...

Seems key to me that the transwomen being allowed in changing room hasn't been communicated to staff.

No, because there's then no mechanism for a proper discussion. And the first person to raise the issue individually gets the SP treatment.

ED - I wanted to know what the policy was to make a decision

Who decides this?

NC - you were new to your role?

ED - yes 3 weeks in

NC - not a great start, had you ever done one before?

ED - no

NC - any training?

ED - no

NC - how come it fell to you?

ED - I was clinical nurse manager for dept.

NC - refs pages

No training. Oh dear.

Surely if there's no policy you immediately look to the law. In fact that should be the first port of call.

ED - if he identifies as a woman
NC - if he's done none of those things, but says he's a woman, is he?
ED - not my job to say. I'm not an expert, I have to respect what they are telling me. Doesn't influence me being able to treat patient.

To be fair to ED, I can perfectly understand why she's seeing DrU as a patient!

Aw! Isla Bumba met her Angolan husband at Aberdeen Uni. They're cute 😘