NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

J - she says she doesn't know you can ask Dr Searle, NC - I will J - she is a senior Dr. It's difficult for this witness to answer these qu, she's not got a Dr degree, not to downplay nurses quals but it's different.

I am so fed up of all this ' ooh maybe he's female, its so hard to say' Crap.

By definition, he's a TW because he is male. If he wasn't male, he could never be a TW. If he was a female, he would just be a woman. A plain ordinary woman and this court case would not be happening.

Its all so mad. Their whole way of thinking is mad and incoherent and inconsistent and why is anyone taking it seriously?

I have never heard a pro- gender ideology argument that was not full of holes and contradictions and incoherence. It just doesn't make ANY sense. None of it.

'Is this TW female? Oooh, who can tell? Its so hard!' No, its bloody simple. He is male as only males can be bloody TW., you absolute numpty.

So sick of this profoundly thick, stupid, cretinous, idiotic shit.

This is just delicious (and I'm still a page behind!)

♥️

Did she seriously just say that she doesn't know if a haircut changes your DNA??

Don't worry, husband's a consultant and many friends are medical- I've peaked them all!! So much so that a lot has been quietly changed again.... After all, it turns out sex is a large determiner for a lot of issues.

ED must have been very visibility flustered for the judge to intervene like this.

NC - agreed a swab will tell us indiv sex

JR - she said unique identity, given by witness she explained.

NC - and next qu was including sex

J - checks notes - there was a yes to it tells you if M or F

NC - yes, do you agree sex is a real thing?

ED - yes

NC - it's about bodies?

NC - agreed a swab will tell us indiv sex JR - she said unique identity, given by witness she explained. NC - and next qu was including sex J - checks notes - there was a yes to it tells you if M or F NC - yes, do you agree sex is a real thing? ED - yes NC - it's about bodies

This is beyond ridiculous now.

Ah but it’s ok, because the doctor coming tomorrow might know.

A nurse needs to know sex of patient to select correct catheter. Different sizes.

It’s difficult for the nurse to answer the questions because she doesn’t want to get the Sandy treatment - “do it to Julia”! Really, does the judge think you need to be a doctor to say whether clothes and make up change someone’s sex? I think not.

She's a nurse so it would be the nurses and midwifery council, not the gmc

Oh my God. Nurses all over the country would be fuming at this.

The only reason you need to know if a patient is a male or female is in case they're pregnant!!!

ED - yes

NC - when it matters whether M or F.....maybe not a qu for you. IS recognising sex is real and sometimes matters is gender critical beliefs?

ED - I don't know what GC beliefs are?

NC - do you recognise sex is real and sometimes matters?

ED - appearance?

NC - no, DNA sex

She can't answer, can she, because the moment she admits that Upton is male, the whole thing falls apart.

ED - yes NC - when it matters whether M or F.....maybe not a qu for you. IS recognising sex is real and sometimes matters is gender critical beliefs? ED - I don't know what GC beliefs are? NC - do you recognise sex is real and sometimes matters? ED - appearance? NC - no, DNA sex

12 year old turns up in A&E having found blood in their pants, and we go through all the same diagnostic testing regardless of sex?

24 year old turns up in A&E complaining they can't move because of abdominal pain. They haven't had sex recently so can't be pregnant - all the same diagnostic tests regardless of sex?

Apologies to all who live there, but I think the only thing to do is to stay avoid Fife. A&E clearly not functioning.

I believe 😬😬😬😬 this sums up ED performance so far

NC - and it has real world consequences IRL?

ED - I suppose

NC - do you agree a lot of people think that?

ED - no idea

NC - it's reasonable, people come in M or F and sometimes it matters?

ED - depends on context

NC - for those who think that and don't think sex is changed

Eh, claims she doesn't know what GC beliefs are....this one is playing the donkey card.

Birthplace also of the medical dark ages from the sounds of it. How many female patients have died because they've been given drugs in the male range to appease TRAs?

From Twitter:

Noted. Think I'll need it.

Seems key to me that the transwomen being allowed in changing room hasn't been communicated to staff. And also if they haven't told staff how do they know if people are afraid or agree?

Of course someone will be shocked that someone biologically male will be in the changing rooms they thought were for biological females. That's harassment imho.

There's also no chance for objections to the "alternative" of using cupboard i.e. still not single sex, man could enter, not suitable in all circumstances i.e. have period and need access to lockers, loos and place to change clothes.

I've got to wonder how she was leading the investigation when she had had prior discussions with Sandie about the issue, with now clearly different accounts especially Sandie saying she would talk to Dr. Upton directly.