NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

NC - I'll be clear. You said you didn't need to tell team because that would make DU uncomfortable/singled out and you are meant to be respectful of cultural beliefs - you are refering to DU belief

ED - DU believes is a woman, there are all kinds of beliefs.

NC - you said, meant to be respectful of cultural beliefs, in that context you meant DU belief he's a woman?

I suspect she’ll save that for when questioning R1

ED - DU believes is a woman, there are all kinds of beliefs.

Uh oh

ED - there are others [women] who ED - change in cubicles away from women

So do the other women report these women for not wanting to change in their sight?

Wondering what the - seemingly omitted - pronoun was here

DU believes is a woman, there are all kinds of beliefs.

And we'll never know whether she just mis-gendered him

NC - I'll be clear. You said you didn't need to tell team because that would make DU uncomfortable/singled out and you are meant to be respectful of cultural beliefs - you are refering to DU belief ED - DU believes is a woman, there are all kinds of beliefs.

Did she say 'He' believes he'sa woman? Not clear.

NC - you were sympathetic to SP, when you wouldn't have been if she didn't want to share with a black nurse, so it is different. Because wearing makeup, growing hair etc doesn't make you a woman

ED - I have no expertise and am not a TW so can't answer.

NC - it's a fact, I know

Really like to know if she said Upton believes HE is a woman.

These “other changing rooms”, are they designated female only, or is it just bullshit from ED?
Because to me it sounds like ED is blaming SP for not being psychic and knowing the DU would walk in on her.
And given there want a coherent single sex changing room policy, why would these other supposed rooms be any different.

Right you lovely lot, I'm delurking just to sing the praises of NC. She's got ED well boxed in here 😊

Doesn't know what a woman is because she is not a TW and therefore has no expertise...wtf is she on about, she's making herself sound like a right numpty.

NC - you were sympathetic to SP, when you wouldn't have been if she didn't want to share with a black nurse, so it is different. Because wearing makeup, growing hair etc doesn't make you a woman ED - I have no expertise and am not a TW so can't answer. NC - it's a fact, I know

Playing ignorant

I think I can hear her sweating

[merail] Seriously, the next time the the NMC is advertising for professional or lay members of the FtP investigation or Hearing committees, it would be outstanding if FWR posters were to apply. Things won't change until GC views are represented on the panels. [/merail]

GC views are a vital element of diversity considerations (or should be).

https://www.nmc.org.uk/news/news-and-updates/nmc-increases-diversity-of-ftp-panel-member-pool/

JR objecting to facts now...what a surprise.

NC - it's uncomfortable, it's hard to say, but because a man wears clothes, grows hair etc it doesn't make him a woman. It's a fact J

R - object, false premise it's a fact. it's her belief.

J - qu of case is facts and law. Might be a necessary fact, what is sex of R2

I'm assuming she's getting to the point of - you are imposing DU's belief on everyone else and ignoring the rights of everyone else to have beliefs respected.

Hoo boy, judge might be getting there...

Are women just supposed to guess which changing rooms are free from men? How are those with beliefs that changing rooms are free of all males that know which ones to use?

How does ED know that Upton's womanhood is based on a belief and not reality, though? He says he is female/woman. He has female paperwork. Female name. At what point did they learn he was male. When he rocked up for his first day?

If ED has no expertise are we looking at another medical professional who can't tell what sex people are?

It doesn't make sense. Given the hospital policy, the only think SP could do was to hover and try to work out whether Dr Upton was or would use the changing room - and that was exactly the kind of behaviour that got her suspended.

JR - we need a skilled expert to deal with sex qu

J - so put that later. C's case is that R2 is male. It is a disputed qu, it's a mix of fact and law. That is being put against you, we are dealing with EQA.

JR - how can this witness answer this?

J - it is a permissible qu, it

Sex of R2 may be a necessary fact! Come on J!!