NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

The noose is over the head

NC - new and potential issue.

ED - yes

NC - not a surprise it's a problem for some

ED - only person who has said is SP

NC - not surprised it arose?

ED - hadn't thought about it.

NC - nice to have had comms before it happened, as even if required by law for TW in F CR, you could

I wish we could bloody watch this. I don't know if ED is smug and smirky like Upton or quavering in her boots. I'm guessing the former from her 'burn the witch because she likes Trump' comments.

ED herself is WORSE than Trump for women's rights. FFS why these people think they have the moral high ground I don't know.

NC - new and potential issue. ED - yes NC - not a surprise it's a problem for some ED - only person who has said is SP

NC - have informed nurses and had time to discuss any issues

ED - if they had told me I could have made a judgement

NC - would have been fair to warn nurses rather than surprised half undressed?

ED - don't know how it could have been misconstrued, could have been looking at TW

ED - as different. Not given that opportunity.

NC - said it would have been nice to know in advance, and then your answer as recorded by AG is a bit different. No comms sent to say DU was using F CR, don't have right to make her feel unwelcome.

ED - yes I said that

NC - have informed nurses and had time to discuss any issues ED - if they had told me I could have made a judgement NC - would have been fair to warn nurses rather than surprised half undressed? ED - don't know how it could have been misconstrued, could have been looking at TW

It's not required by law is it?

Is this a transcription error?

NC - that is the approved answer, what you are meant to say. It is rude to DU to tell nurses he'll be using the CR?

ED - a judgement call.

NC - you said, didn't think need. Expected to respect others cultural beliefs, but the right answer was you would have liked to be warned.

Uh oh, sounds like she's realised she's displayed some unbeliever sentiment there and now wants to avoid the ducking stool.

The only reason they'd be seen as different is because they ARE different with the male biology and over 6ft manly skeleton. FFS

ED Trying to suggest that telling nurses that aTW would be in CR may have alerted them to the fact a TW is "different"

It's a hypothetical (I assume). No, it's against the law to not have single sex spaces.

But presumably warning nurses in advance that there might be a man in the female changing room counts as outing Upton as trans which isn't allowed, is it?

Because as he himself said, some women think he's bio female and have no idea he is a man.

ED - only SP

NC - needed to warn all nurses not just SP

ED - doesn't seem to bother others

NC - did you know SP had been assaulted by a male GP when 17

ED - didn't have that info

NC - not surprising a woman with a hist of sexual trauma is partic upset by sharing CR with a male

But isn't the current law that an employer must have separate changing facilities for men and women?

Dr U (and Fife HB) might mistakenly believe himself to be a woman and not a man, but that doesn't mean that he is for the purposes of The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992

Is anyone else holding their breath while reading this?

The SUSPENSE!!

ED - not unreasonable she would be upset. But there are other changing facilities, I wouldn't have put myself in that situation

NC - no reason yo shoudl have known about the assault. WOuldn't expect to know this about any of your nurses.

ED - no

NC - may be other nurses with

NC: You suggested that SP didn't have right to make her ( DU) feel unwelcome.

Again, singling SP out, trying to pretend she's the weird one for complaining about Upton's twig and berries in the ladies.

RAGE - she didn't put herself in that situation, you and DU did. FFS

Rage as well here

I hope NC asks about Pete

ED could have had a general discussion with the staff about what the current policy was so at least she's have got an honest reaction from the women before DU appeared on the ward. Especially as according to DU no one would know he was trans as he passes as a woman because he is a woman.

So she wouldn't not have broken his confidence or outed him either.

NC - that is the approved answer, what you are meant to say. It is rude to DU to tell nurses he'll be using the CR? ED - a judgement call. NC - you said, didn't think need. Expected to respect others cultural beliefs, but the right answer was you would have liked to be warned.NC - that is the approved answer, what you are meant to say. It is rude to DU to tell nurses he'll be using the CR? ED - a judgement call. NC - you said, didn't think need. Expected to respect others cultural beliefs, but the right answer was you would have liked to be warned.

NC - history of sexual trauma

ED - I wouldn't know

NC - people don't declare it to employers?

ED - no, I wouldn't know

NC - may be any no. of nurses with trauma who feel upset etc on encountering DU in changing?

ED - couldn't comment

NC - others put at this risk