NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

Du wasn't aware - DU admitted DU has never thought about menstruation as a reason women might want single sex changing rooms.

Long time since I was a lawyer but wonder if Upton was up to date on the discussions around Hate Incidents re the 2021 Act and used in his e mail. He would be up to date wouldn't he but someone else knew the Act didn't come into force until April 2024 so went back to pre 2021 Hate Crime. I know I am inferring more sense to Fife NHS than they deserve! Andrew Watson must have been tearing his hair out when it eventually came across his desk.

NC - knew her better before she went part time?

ED - I was junior then, thought SP worked twilight shifts then.

NC - go back a long way

ED - yes

NC - all your time as charge nurse, no issues or complaints?

ED - one, a jr member of staff, could have been a clash, jr person

To be fair, the judge's starting points are to the legal teams, and they may have representations to make to him before the open session begins. I suspect this is why a lot of the sessions have started late - negotiations on additional discovery and disclosure, JR dealing with the fact that she categorically stated no investigation but has just spent 3 hours questioning ED about that investigation, etc etc etc.

I know this because many years ago I was on the jury for a murder trial (horrible, but fascinating) and the open court sessions, including us, only began after the legal teams and the judge had cleared up any outstanding stuff from the previous session, or that had arisen during breaks/overnight etc.

Reading all of these threads make me want to raze fucking cities. I am so angry.

He's too busy moving through the world as a woman to think about stuff like periods.

😁

It's never an inappropriate time for that!

Count me in!

NC - all your time as charge nurse, no issues or complaints? ED - one, a jr member of staff, could have been a clash, jr person

I'm looking forward to seeing where NC goes with her questions.

Apart from which, her emotional state, unless displayed by inappropriate behaviour, is her business, surely?
Also ED doesn't seem to be great at judging a lot of things so somebody's internal feelings is a stretch.

ED - felt driven to unprof behaviour.

NC - jr was unprofessional, no reason to think SP unprof?

ED - no

NC - SP said not happy about DU encounter?

ED - yes

NC - she found it intimidating and embarrassing?

ED - that's what she said.

NC - reason to doubt?

ED- no

NC - did you?

ED - no

A&E is going to be even noiseier than usual, with us running around bellowing for Datun and chanting Nauticunt!

placemarking to find out what NC asks

NC - refs page - 1/3 way down your interview with AG, she gives your account of conv. says you said, not aware of that will contact Eq and Div. that you'll check policy and get back. SP says you were sympathetic and you'd get it sorted?

ED - don't want anyone upset, was sympath

That's it turf the woman out from using the space designated for her and make her change in the basement or toilet instead of the literal man pretending to be a woman.

But.. but... I thought it was wrong and harassment for her to leave and not change in front of him? If her bosses told her to go and change somewhere else that would be them ENCOURAGING the transphobia!!! Why hasn't DU reported them for this "avoidance" policy?

junior person 'felt driven' to unprofessional behaviour, not Sandie's fault is it?...is this all she can come up with? It's like she had to find something to discredit her.

My fucking blood pressure can't handle these arseholes...

NC - SP said not happy about DU encounter? ED - yes NC - she found it intimidating and embarrassing? ED - that's what she said. NC - reason to doubt? ED- no NC - did you? EDno

<Tannoy announcement> WILL ALL MUMSNETTERS PLEASE TAKE A TRIAGE TICKET AND RETURN TO THE WAITING AREA. YOU WILL BE SEEN AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Yes wrong to leave wrong to stay wrong to look wrong to not look wrong to speak wrong to think wrong to breathe wrong to blink.

NC - get it sorted?

ED - not my recollection.

NC - were sympathetic?

ED - yes

NC - your reputation is you will stick up for nurses

ED - yes

NC - you wouldn't have beens ympath to someone no wanting to share with a black nurse.

ED - no, not appropriate.

ED seems to have suspended SP for ED's benefit, to stop upsetting incidents for ED - like having to manage people, in her role as a manager.

TBF in a small hospital where there will probably be loads of people who have worked there for decades, and a regular influx of newer younger staff, it wouldn't be surprising if some staff were sick to the back teeth of each other for all kinds of reasons. But as an example, hypothetically, if Sandie had been bringing a love for Trump to work in a disruptive way, it'd be unlikely to be new. The Trump era has gone on a long time,and she's entitled to her beliefs. If any kind of discussion disrupts core business, ED has had a long time to take advice and deal with disruption. Or to learn how to shut her ears and let things go that are not a manager's business to comment on. ED is trying hard to throw shade but just seems to be showing herself up as a totally incompetent people manager in all of this.

And I say all this as a lefty liberal who would be driven bonkers listening to anyone's politics at work whatever position, but defend absolutely their right to vote how they want and go on holiday wherever they bloody choose.

Coercive control in a nutshell. I.e. Abuse.

NC - you said you would have liked to have been informed about trans use of CR by others?

ED- yes

NC - if you'd had prior warning, you could have been prepped

ED - Could have said to SP rather than her having to wait.

NC - prior warning of TW using CR would have been good as

Neat reversal of black and trans are sort of the same thing by NC there.