NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

It would hardly help the respondents' case if they said there was no female changing room.

I missed the beginning of the ET on here so haven't read any of Sandies testimony (is that the right word) could they have asked her if she'd have been OK with a trans man in the changing room (which presumably she would have been - as female) ergo she is not transphobic, she just doesn't want to change with a man! I will go back and read it all when I have more time!

Datun, is this an appropriate time to tell you that I love you?

It honestly makes me feel better to hear you stating things so clearly.

I'd run around an A+E department FOR AN HOUR just to find you.

And I love all of you wimmins here. I'm so glad we're all here together - I couldn't cope with all the FFS!!! on my own :)😍😍😍

Planting both feet firmly on the thread to establish my right to be here complete ignorance of anything that’s happened today while I catch up.

and what a lot of catching up there is!

Pull up a chair and make your self comfy. We've had a another Hell of a session.

'Well staff, you saw what happened to Sandie. You're all OK with Dr Upton using the changing rooms, aren't you?

You are, right? You must be'.

And I love all of you wimmins here. I'm so glad we're all here together - I couldn't cope with all the FFS!!! on my own

Seconded. I'm only lurking but I can't tell you how much I value this community.

'I'd run around an A+E department FOR AN HOUR just to find you.'

😄i think we all would. Shouting 'Datun! Daaaaaatuuun!'

In the TWAW context it means having to listen to someone who disagrees with you.

Just like "literal violence" really...

'I'd run around an A+E department FOR AN HOUR just to find you.'

😄i think we all would. Shouting 'Datun! Daaaaaatuuun!'

'Of course all the female staff are delighted to share with a man. Look round the court, do you see any other women here getting grilled in public about their suspension, history of SA, their menstruation, their political views, their husband's political views, being criticised for how 'stern' they look'? No?

Well. QED, they all love sharing the changing room with a man. Probably especially because he's so KIND and lovely and so easily upset and good at taking contemperaneous notes'.

Surely not in patients' best interests either? Just to appease Upton's hurty feelings. FFS

The laundry bag comment stuck with me as it reinforced SP's reasoning as to why she didn't want to share the CR with DU. Even if she complied with DU's suggestion that she change in the cubicle (and why should she), she'd still need to carry her possibly stained scrubs through the CR to the outside. And DU was aware of that.

I have refreshed about eleventy billion times and it still hasn't started again yet. 1.50pm my fat arse!

Is anyone surprised at this point?😬

Starting now

Oh it's started 😁

We begin.

Esther Davidson (ED) on the stand.

JR - ED has appts tomorrow am, cross exam est is 2.5 hours, will we meet it?

J - will see at 3:45

JR - someone back row, poss filming fyi.

J - filming is a crime on this premises.

NC - poss that my phone pinged, accidently screenshot

Given that he thinks he's biologically female if they believe him they're compliant!

No, it's clear from PP actual mishandled deaths are WAY down this Trust's priority list, far far below hurty feelings at being misgendered.

I think they might think imposing trans ideology is their primary function - they seem to be acting that way. A bit disturbing since it has no basis in scientific fact.

Thank you for keeping us all up-dated

What relevance has the fact that nurse Sandie stayed in a Trump hotel on her holidays, other than to demonstrate EDs lack of objectivity?

I'd like to see ED challenged on her description of SP as angry, when what she describes seeing of SP's reaction, is upset, physical reaction (shaking & looking flushed) etc. She's (I think) only had a description of DU's reaction to the CR 'incident' but she's got a totally different view of his described response. Why frame SP as 'angry' and DU as 'upset'?

The staff involved appear to be primed to prejudge a woman's behaviour, words, actions etc. It would be interesting to see what EDI training they've all had & whether any examples used frame older women as 'angry and/or bigots' when encountering a man larping as a woman.

But the law was written when woman = biological female and man = biological male they can't just interpret the law to suit themselves.

Although this appears to be what they have done....

they really need to remember that if Dr Upton is claiming "gender reassignment" as a protected characteristic, then the appropriate comparator is another man without that characteristic.

They don't seem to have done this.

all laugh -

it wasn't that noise, it was back row.

NC - good afternoon ED.

NC - couple of qu re SP. 30 years unblemished service

ED - since 1994

NC - worked with you at least 20 years

ED - since she started.

NC - now on opposite shifts, see each other at handovers