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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/02/2025 10:57

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Jimmyneutronsforehead · 13/02/2025 13:33

Sorry I've been busy with school stuff. I've missed quite a lot of pages.

Hopefully will get chance to read the substack to catch up soon.

SelfPortraitWithHagstone · 13/02/2025 13:34

Manderleyagain · 13/02/2025 13:18

It strikes me that Sandy might win because the disciplinery/hr process was so piss poor, but the judgement might never rule on whether the root problem - the decision to allow upton, and the presumed policy to allow trans women in general to use the female CR - was lawful or not. Could the whole thing be decided without the judge saying whether the trust broke the workplace law about separate m/f changing areas, or whether allowing males in the f CR in itself was discrimination based on sex? Is it being argued on those grounds too?

I would put money on the panel desperately hoping that they need only determine it on those grounds, and not having to deal with the enormous can of worms that is SSS.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 13/02/2025 13:34

Are they actually saying there was another changing room

maltravers · 13/02/2025 13:34

Clearly deliberate. Punish the witch.

AMillionMugsNoTeabags · 13/02/2025 13:34

YourWiseBee · 13/02/2025 13:30

There was missing emails I believe.

jr must also not have seen them or they would have been disclosed?

shes been lied to also and her case has been seriously undermined because of it.

Indeed. But I would have expected JR to have made that clear to the tribunal and if she didn’t, for the J to have asked her directly if her case had changed as a result of the late disclosure.

maltravers · 13/02/2025 13:34

maltravers · 13/02/2025 13:34

Clearly deliberate. Punish the witch.

Sorry! Quote fail. Re DU foot dragging in giving a statement.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 13/02/2025 13:35

NotLikeACourt · 13/02/2025 13:32

DU I submitted by 23/1 for 24. That's how deadlines work.

A good excuse to highlight the patronisation again...

Oh yes, of course!

Patronising pillock that he is.

GreySkirt · 13/02/2025 13:36

I’m behind by about an hour, but what would their plan have been if there had more than one man demanding access to the female changing room? Or men in other departments?

Only so many shift pattern changes, departments, would she have been retired on full pay - taking this to its only logical conclusion?!

MorrisZapp · 13/02/2025 13:37

snickersbarchild · 13/02/2025 13:27

I'm still here! only kidding. i think he was fine otherwise I'm sure there'd be a HUGE fuss, even more than when DU was misgendered.

Thank god. Stop eating nuts ya roaster!

Carsitting · 13/02/2025 13:37

FannyCann · 13/02/2025 12:19

It is, totally. Dr Sally Pezaro is a midwife on the NMC council or disciplinary committee. She posts a lot on tiktok. Tells us (Veeerry patronisingly) science has moved on, two sexes is so last century elementary school biology etc.

A terrible person to find yourself up against.

www.tiktok.com/@sallypezaro/video/7319775660308696352

In that video she describes GC beliefs harmful, leading to harmful behaviours, discriminatory, oppressive and widening inequality. She says it is ' difficult' for some people that these views are allowed.

Absolutely bloody awful that someone this prejudiced is on a disciplinary committee.

littlbrowndog · 13/02/2025 13:37

Bigots 🤣

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 13/02/2025 13:38

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 13/02/2025 13:34

Are they actually saying there was another changing room

Yes, I think ED said there's an actual changing room that was designated as such way back when, but it's not in the department, it's in the basement and no one uses it.

I think ED was listing alternative places the witch could be sent to to get changed, she also mentioned a different toilet and said SP was clear she wouldn't agree to changing in toilets.

StellaAndCrow · 13/02/2025 13:39

Do we know yet when it was decided that a Hate Crime had been committed?

They're talking about a Hate Incident so far, but it's in Trust minutes as a Hate Crime in March 24.

Hopefully NC will clarify.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 13/02/2025 13:40

Hermyknee · 13/02/2025 13:22

‘ED - we felt it was going well, no issues, managed rotas so no interaction with DU, we felt it was going well’

And if any other women dared speak wrongthink and muck up the rearranged rotas we reckon they would know what was coming to them so we be too scared to.

…at what point was this going to go away?

Exactly - look at what happened to the one woman who did speak up... it served as a very strong warning to other women in that hospital to keep their mouth shut.

Tootsweets23 · 13/02/2025 13:40

If the NHS is allowing male doctors to do intimate care on women without clear consent then they are all totally screwed.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 13/02/2025 13:41

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 13/02/2025 13:38

Yes, I think ED said there's an actual changing room that was designated as such way back when, but it's not in the department, it's in the basement and no one uses it.

I think ED was listing alternative places the witch could be sent to to get changed, she also mentioned a different toilet and said SP was clear she wouldn't agree to changing in toilets.

Bloody hell.

That's it turf the woman out from using the space designated for her and make her change in the basement or toilet instead of the literal man pretending to be a woman.

But of course it's not about validating his feelings of being a woman.

ClosdesMouches · 13/02/2025 13:41

I have to leave to attend a meeting. I think (hope) this afternoon's session will shine a lot more light. Go NC!

Hermyknee · 13/02/2025 13:43

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 13/02/2025 13:38

Yes, I think ED said there's an actual changing room that was designated as such way back when, but it's not in the department, it's in the basement and no one uses it.

I think ED was listing alternative places the witch could be sent to to get changed, she also mentioned a different toilet and said SP was clear she wouldn't agree to changing in toilets.

Given the number of sexual assaults in hospitals, I wouldn’t fancy changing down in a basement if it was isolated. Anything private is a gift for violators - even in busy areas - as there’s no one ask what’s going on. However a 6ft bloke shouldn’t have the same concerns.

ArabellaScott · 13/02/2025 13:44

Doesn't matter how 'stern' SP was. Doesn't matter what her views are/were on American politics. Doesn't matter where she went on holiday.

Doesn't matter how 'kind' and 'gentle' Upton was. Doesn't matter how sad or upset he was. Doesn't matter how well he passes or doesn't.

Either women are entitled to single sex changing spaces as per H&S workplace regs, and the Equality Act, or they're not.

StellaAndCrow · 13/02/2025 13:44

KohlaParasaurus · 13/02/2025 12:59

Experienced and highly trained people who should know better being railroaded into acting in haste by a determined and superficially very plausible troublemaker. I've been there in a clinical situation in the NHS with a patient I didn't realise was being manipulative and dishonest, even knowing at a cognitive level that I was as susceptible to manipulation as anyone else, and felt the utter humiliation of realising that I'd been played when the patient's next move was to turn on me. Following ED's testimony is giving me flashbacks.

ETA: Though the thing that really hits deep is poor Sandie unexpectedly finding herself on her own in front of a kangaroo court and then having her emotional reaction judged and found wanting.

Edited

Kohla, that's so true. It took me years to realise that when a patient said "you're the only one that listens", "you're the only one that helped me', that's NOT a good sign!

crabbyoldbat · 13/02/2025 13:46

NotLikeACourt · 13/02/2025 13:32

DU I submitted by 23/1 for 24. That's how deadlines work.

A good excuse to highlight the patronisation again...

I'm not sure that this was his full statement - wasn't there talk of it just being about the Christmas Eve/day incident, and that he could fill in background and further details during the investigation interviews?

RoyalCorgi · 13/02/2025 13:48

Bluebootsgreenboots · 13/02/2025 13:31

So ED looked and there was no policy regarding use of CRs by opposite sex people identifying as trans. But EP names 2 people telling her that the trust policy was for Ti people to use the CR of their choice. Where did they get that info from? It's like a game of Chinese whispers.

More astonishingly, wasn't anyone at NHS Fife aware of the 1992 workplace regulations specifying that men and women should have different changing rooms?

nauticant · 13/02/2025 13:49

Stonewalled people tend to be exceptionally blinkered.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 13/02/2025 13:50

The idea that women's consent and privacy, dignity and safety is contingent on their political views, or whether they are sufficiently performatively naice, is absurd and offensive. We aren't obliged to fawn. We don't have to beg for our rights.

Remember the dignity of your womanhood. Do not appeal, do not beg, do not grovel.

The idea that a man is entitled to insist that women should not only share a space with him but not remove themselves from that space without him noting it down to use as ammunition against them, is just as absurd and offensive.

And the idea that using certain buzzwords and wearing a bit of mascara is enough to contravene regulations and the law is absurd.

NHS Fife are required to provide single sex changing rooms for staff. It really doesn't matter who they find more or less agreeable.

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