NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

I suspect NC will question about how much influence DU had on investigation.

remember he suggested he didn’t really want serious consequences for Sandie (can’t remember exact description he used) but I doubt this was actually the case. He wanted to make her pay.

i do think she will be ripped to shreds this afternoon

Do you think NC will go down the route of asking ED why she thinks women have separate facilities, has she heard of AGPs, and if belief of one's womanhood is all she needs from a man, how does she know Upton's belief he is a woman is sincere? And is it reasonable to expect all other women to just unquestioningly trust?

‘ED - we felt it was going well, no issues, managed rotas so no interaction with DU, we felt it was going well’

And if any other women dared speak wrongthink and muck up the rearranged rotas we reckon they would know what was coming to them so we be too scared to.

…at what point was this going to go away?

Fucking hell, it's the end of MARCH by then! And she's been suspended since 3rd Jan! Imagine having to wait all that time to even find out next steps.

The bar for suspension seems quite low. Is this usual?

Is it just me that is amazed at the cack handed way this investigation and suspension was carried out? I had assumed the NHS’s HR machine would be pretty well oiled, but it seems like this is just a senior nurse with little input, spinning the plate to keep it on the end of the stick when she has time. Or have I misunderstood? No sense or urgency about whether the suspension might be unfair or getting people back to work. We hear the NHS is on its knees, but here is DU in taking two months off with a fit of the vapours, SP being suspended for months on end, various other people off sick. It’s so dysfunctional!

But this isn’t a question for ED.
A few days ago, JR clearly presented that R1’s and R2’s case was that there was no investigation by ED. Now she’s implying by her question that there was.

has the respondents’ case changed? It’s important to know, because the same answer from ED either supports or weakens the respondents case.

it’s not up to ED to decide what the respondents case is; tbf it’s not JR’s either, but she should make it clear to the court if her clients position has changed on this point.

Can anyone recall when Upton actually submitted his full statement for the investigation? His delay with his, egregious and frankly ridiculous, complaints seems to have contributed significantly to the lengthy and drawn out investigation and suspension.

Males like DU when their "I am a woman" house of cards is challenged saying they feel unsafe is so manipulative. Having your pack of lies about yourself unravelled isn't a harm that anyone else should have to bother themselves about.

Catching up on all this. Would part of this investigation covered whether or not others were unhappy about use of CR.

ED says it was only custom and practice that it was used as a CR but yesterday BU said there was a laundry bag for used scrubs outside the door.

I'm still here! only kidding. i think he was fine otherwise I'm sure there'd be a HUGE fuss, even more than when DU was misgendered.

The bar is higher, but they've ignored policy and just made it up as they went along.

and in contradiction to the 3am Christmas Day email

I wonder if there's any history between ED and Sandie prior to this given they have worked at the same hospital for decades?

I'm intrigued by the J's comment that there had been a lot to digest this morning. I'm assuming he wants a chance to start thinking about whether the panel will have any questions for ED after NC's cross examination

So is there now debate over whether there was actually a changing room?

JR - now email about return to work, what is your understanding of what's being said there, ref to compromise what was that about
ED - we were bringing SP back to on weekends only, we were trying

AND HOW WAS DR UPTON ASKED TO COMPROMISE!!!?

It's not compromise if it's all one way.

Sorry for shouting - but . . .FFS!

I should just adjust my autocomplete so one keystroke gives
FFS! WTF!? WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK!!??

There was missing emails I believe.

jr must also not have seen them or they would have been disclosed?

shes been lied to also and her case has been seriously undermined because of it.

Picking up on the low bar pp gender ideology has been so destructive because it's so easy for bullying males to take out women

So ED looked and there was no policy regarding use of CRs by opposite sex people identifying as trans. But EP names 2 people telling her that the trust policy was for Ti people to use the CR of their choice. Where did they get that info from? It's like a game of Chinese whispers.

I would really like to know the reason why this could not have been resolved by Upton being told that he should use other facilities. Well I can guess why, because they are frightened by him, but there is no proof that he was ever asked or told. Thanks to Nauticant Ikky and all of you fantastic commentators who are trying to shed light on this appalling situation. Only just catching up…

I am desperate for NC to ask if she thinks Upton should examine a woman who asked for same sex care.

And what she would have done if SP had complained about any other male member of staff in the female changing room.

I don’t think she’ll be “ripped to shreds”. She comes across on TT as straightforward, not very diligent in pursuing this speedily (but it’s clearly a poisoned chalice), with the main fault being (1) misogynistic policies - our old friends Stonewall I expect (2) fear of getting on the wrong side of rightthink/the Borg/ DU/ hospital DEI (3) assumption that it’s SP’s fault because that’s convenient (4) the foot dragging in such a situation- maybe the hospital colluded in making this like wading through treacle though. A convenient way of giving DU what he wants and frightening off any other complaints.

DU I submitted by 23/1 for 24. That's how deadlines work.

A good excuse to highlight the patronisation again...

Perhaps the room with the lockers and the benches and the pegs and the toilet cubicles identified as an operating theatre? Or a canteen.