NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

It certainly reeks of not having a good reason to suspend and not offering any real support. Patient safety wasnt really important to anyone, just concern about Upton's feelings.

Maybe NC will raise this question.

ED - i think that was August because SP said at that point she didn't want to share changing room with DU.
JR - anything else you learned in this meeting
ED - SPs belief had not changed
JR - re different shifts, different departments, what are the rules on that

Her beliefs had not changed, despite the re-education!

Someone needs to ask what is meant by unsafe in the context of the changing rooms.

Is it the 'safety' of DU's fantasy world? Keeping him 'safe' from being seen for who he is?

There's even a PhD about it. "‘#TERF/Bigot/Transphobe’ – ‘We found the witch, burn her!’"

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4287881-Congratulations-Shonagh-Dillon-for-Defending-Your-PhD-TERF-Bigot-Transphobe-We-found-the-witch-burn-her?

A woman has been suspended, gagged, prevented from working, forced to move shifts and jobs, threatened with losing her PIN, had to bring her mum, husband and daughter as witnesses, had to discuss her perimenopausal vaginal bleeding and previous sexual trauma in public.....all because she asked for privacy in a changing room.

yes, let's let that sink in

IIRC this is about a patient who required obs where Sandie told Upton to do it, which he took great umbrage to and perceived it as a transphobic attack or something (rather than a busy nurse saying you're here already so just get on with it). Sandie said it was on the same shift as the child who had an anaphylactic reaction to a Snickers bar, which she had attended alongside Upton, but he failed to remember that incident (where they worked fine together). Upton then couldn't provide a date for the obs incident, despite all his contemporaneous note taking, and not at all because if he could date it, Sandie's account could be corroborated.

But not, apparently, Victoria Hospital Fife.

Does she pull off her mask at the end and it was Ben Cooper all along?

I assume it's the ridiculous notion that DU would have felt unsafe with SP on the same shift.

The risk of mean, stern SP encountering poor gentle DU in the women's changing room again and telling him again that he should not be in there and of him kicking up even more of a fuss for everyone to deal with?

Was HR not at any of these meetings / IX? Why were detailed notes not taken and shared at the time? I run myself around in circles making sure I comply with all the right protocols to ensure fair and balanced practices on all sides within my business. Why is an NHS Trust allowed to operate so badly with all the resources they have? Maybe something to do with the amount of long term sick there appears to be in the department?

My interpretation is "unsafe" = experiencing uncomfortable feelings in response to an interaction with an individual.

She was the letter box ... just like Jarnail Singh at the Post Office 🙄

I am sure the reason for the length of the investigation will come out in this afternoons' XX.

My money is on DU telling the employer that he felt unsafe working with her.

Yes, it is clearly linked to the modern use of the word safe rather than the old fashioned meaning of unsafe = at risk of causing actual harm

It strikes me that Sandy might win because the disciplinery/hr process was so piss poor, but the judgement might never rule on whether the root problem - the decision to allow upton, and the presumed policy to allow trans women in general to use the female CR - was lawful or not. Could the whole thing be decided without the judge saying whether the trust broke the workplace law about separate m/f changing areas, or whether allowing males in the f CR in itself was discrimination based on sex? Is it being argued on those grounds too?

I dont think the judge would ask questions yet - he'll see what NC asks first. There will be some interesting cross examination!

Indeed.

The rest of the NHS would love to know where they get all their highly experienced, qualified and not just willing to tolerate but actively seeking to work nights, nurses from. Especially those who have 30 years experience but still only get paid band 5 (the NHS AfC payscales are just ridiculous for lack of progression).

Everyone else is actively recruiting from all corners of the globe, but Fife can suspend someone who lives up the road for months on almost zero/very spurious grounds.

I’m sure she will… it’s just that conflicting witness evidence usually gets covered in cross. This is conflicting statements by counsel.

I agree.
As lovely as it is to imagine nurses fruffing pillows and mopping brows and being everyone's mum away from home, we are actually experts within our scope of practice and this is as outrageous as expecting an emergency department consultant to suddenly go and work as an orthopaedic surgeon.

Yeah, I think so. Seems to me Upton suffers from emotional dysregulation, and holds other people accountable for his emotions. Classic narcissism/ emotional immaturity.

I think there are multiple claims being decided simultaneously, so each will require to be found against (or not)

Indeed. In a dept where it's so easy to not see someone for 2 months to give an answer about CRs, but where it's also impossible to work out a shift pattern to prevent the part time mean nurse crossing paths with the poor gentle DU...

It might be better for her to win on the procedural issue and have the public perception be that it was a changing room issue. Because under the current law she might lose on the changing room issue alone.