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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/02/2025 10:57

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

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InvisibleDragon · 13/02/2025 12:53

Was there anywhere in this morning's questioning that ED said SP was interviewed about what happened? Did this actually happen at all?

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 13/02/2025 12:54

AMillionMugsNoTeabags · 13/02/2025 12:52

JR - now your IX report what date is that

“your IX report”
that would be the IX that wasn’t started, and even if it was started, definitely never got completed yes?

Yep, that she wasn't the lead investigator on. I think JR herself insisted that she may just have been "receiving emails" ....

NotAtMyAge · 13/02/2025 12:55

Chariothorses · 13/02/2025 11:50

Sandie has published a statement- and us mumsnetters get a thank you! But it's the other way round- I am so grateful to her .
https://x.com/nicoleepeggiee/status/1889995534888587309

And she has generously decided to donate the money to charity.

BettyBooper · 13/02/2025 12:55

InvisibleDragon · 13/02/2025 12:53

Was there anywhere in this morning's questioning that ED said SP was interviewed about what happened? Did this actually happen at all?

Good question. I can't see that anything at all happened or changed. So why the long suspension and it suddenly ok for SP to come back to work?

JasmineAllen · 13/02/2025 12:55

InvisibleDragon · 13/02/2025 12:53

Was there anywhere in this morning's questioning that ED said SP was interviewed about what happened? Did this actually happen at all?

No, I don't think so. SP was called to a meeting only to be told she was being suspended.

Edit: typo

Boiledbeetle · 13/02/2025 12:56
Standing Ovation Yes GIF by The Maury Show

Finally caught up.

Much gratitude to ikky and nauticant And Tribunal Tweets for the seamless flowing of threads and tweets.

Tis a wonder.

BettyBooper · 13/02/2025 12:57

BettyBooper · 13/02/2025 12:55

Good question. I can't see that anything at all happened or changed. So why the long suspension and it suddenly ok for SP to come back to work?

Basically, what risk was evident to make suspension necessary and what had changed about the view of that risk?

StellaAndCrow · 13/02/2025 12:57

Datun · 13/02/2025 12:13

Yes he said so, didn't he. Apologise, respect me, blah blah blah

Yes, he said different shifts wouldn't be enough "that wouldn't deal with the respect issue"

Needspaceforlego · 13/02/2025 12:58

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 13/02/2025 12:51

I completely agree. But it does come up because while women's rights seem endlessly debatable without any great anxiety, the acceptance of the needs of people of various faiths did seem to be a bit more widely acknowledged and accepted in general - and the spokespeople for those faiths normally come out with clear and strong voices in defence of their needs and requirements.

As someone said up thread it would be very interesting to have a Rabbi or Imam speak about this.

Not because women of faith are more important but because it somehow seems to help people with limited imagination to engage with the problem, and you can then assist them to extrapolate the point from there.

Edited

I don't want to argue but all women should be protected by Law.

It shouldn't be down to religious leaders to speak up.

KohlaParasaurus · 13/02/2025 12:59

Experienced and highly trained people who should know better being railroaded into acting in haste by a determined and superficially very plausible troublemaker. I've been there in a clinical situation in the NHS with a patient I didn't realise was being manipulative and dishonest, even knowing at a cognitive level that I was as susceptible to manipulation as anyone else, and felt the utter humiliation of realising that I'd been played when the patient's next move was to turn on me. Following ED's testimony is giving me flashbacks.

ETA: Though the thing that really hits deep is poor Sandie unexpectedly finding herself on her own in front of a kangaroo court and then having her emotional reaction judged and found wanting.

AMillionMugsNoTeabags · 13/02/2025 12:59

So… earlier JR said “no investigation, just acting as a post box” and now JR is saying “your investigation report”

in my area of law, the judge would have been interrupting her/himself saying “Miss Russell, I’m not clear on your clients’ position as regards these initial discussions. Could you clarify your instructions as to whether this was an investigation?”

InvisibleDragon · 13/02/2025 13:00

BettyBooper · 13/02/2025 12:55

Good question. I can't see that anything at all happened or changed. So why the long suspension and it suddenly ok for SP to come back to work?

Looking at the NHS suspension policy, it's recommended to find alternatives to suspension and for suspension to not exceed 4 weeks unless in exceptional circumstances. So bringing SP back to work on opposite shifts to DU is a sensible plan that should almost certainly have happened sooner.

But there was a lot of mucking about waiting for DU to send his statement about the CR incident in January. Surely someone could have asked SP what happened in that period?

Datun · 13/02/2025 13:00

I can't wait to see the reason why this investigation is closed, and another one is opened.

I'm sensing there are going to be terms like didn't find a solution, couldn't resolve, didn't know...

and then suddenly there's a kid choking to death on a Snickers bar, being abandoned by Sandie, due to her naked transphobia.

but as soon as Naomi Cunningham points out the career ending nature of this accusation, it's er possibly a different kid, on a different day, can't quite remember, it may be a Wednesday, and it was more than likely just a communications issue, or possibly just abruptness.

Pluvia · 13/02/2025 13:01

BettyBooper · 13/02/2025 12:57

Basically, what risk was evident to make suspension necessary and what had changed about the view of that risk?

Hoping that NC will get the chance to ask this before 4pm!

Merrymouse · 13/02/2025 13:03

StellaAndCrow · 13/02/2025 12:57

Yes, he said different shifts wouldn't be enough "that wouldn't deal with the respect issue"

Of course we have to remember that this all happened before Stonewall quietly changed their definition of transphobia to be a bit more... legal.

MorrisZapp · 13/02/2025 13:04

For clarity, is there any suggestion the peanut allergy child died? I assumed they were treated and discharged.

NotAGentleReminder · 13/02/2025 13:04

Re NMC and Stonewall in case this is of any interest. NMC still a Stonewall Diversity Champion according to their website:
womansplaceuk.org/2021/12/02/stonewall-letter-to-nursing-and-midwifery-council/
www.nmc.org.uk/news/news-and-updates/nmcs-response-to-womans-place-uk/

StellaAndCrow · 13/02/2025 13:04

ickky · 13/02/2025 12:16

support her at work, how to do that

JR - what was discussed

ED - HR suggested that SP could go work in a different area, but SP wanted to return to her area of work

JR - what area of work

ED - quite often when IX going on we might move someone from a med ward to an ortho ward

I'm furious that they considered moving a senior A+E nurse with 30 yrs experience to a different department! That is outrageous.

anyolddinosaur · 13/02/2025 13:05

Upton says it wasnt the snickers bar kid - someone (presumed adult as no mention of child) with breathing difficulties at the end of his shift. If this person exists then comparing shifts and investigating notes should allow them to be identified and the notes examined.

JasmineAllen · 13/02/2025 13:06

IMO if appears ED was keen to brush SPs concerns under the carpet and get her suspension lifted and back to work.

Clearly SP wasn't going to just roll over and apologise to DU about the CR incidents.

Do presumably this is where EDs investigation ended and the second one began which drew more on the unsubstantiated claim of misconduct/patient safety. Maybe to give the suspension more credence and to try and bury SP for good.

SqueakyDinosaur · 13/02/2025 13:06

Re VV - it was said that as s/he (no idea) had submitted a written statement, they wouldn't necessarily be required to appear in person. I know the TT substack has Maya's statement but I assume that's from MF and not from the court.

I have been absolutely furious this entire morning but I am now looking forward to NC's x-examination. I hope she absolutely takes ED apart, in a polite and calm way.

StellaAndCrow · 13/02/2025 13:06

ickky · 13/02/2025 12:19

ED - we thought that moving to a day shift, there would be senior staff around, it would give SP support

JR - why senior support appropriate

ED - we thought SP needed support back into the workplace she'd been off for several months, and we had senior staff to support her

Aaargh - she was off BECAUSE OF YOU!!!!

And she's doing night shifts for a reason, she can't just switch to days. Aside from any life reasons, there's financial loss as well.

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 13/02/2025 13:07

Needspaceforlego · 13/02/2025 12:58

I don't want to argue but all women should be protected by Law.

It shouldn't be down to religious leaders to speak up.

Absolutely. I don't disagree with what SHOULD be the case.

But here we are.

A woman has been suspended, gagged, prevented from working, forced to move shifts and jobs, threatened with losing her PIN, had to bring her mum, husband and daughter as witnesses, had to discuss her perimenopausal vaginal bleeding and previous sexual trauma in public.....all because she asked for privacy in a changing room.

Some people don't seem to be able to engage fully with the issues at play and for some, they find it easier to grasp the needs of people of faith or certain cultures.

It is also very relevant that the PSED requires that public bodies work in a way to manage conflicts between different PCs, where none trump each other.

Regardless of what SHOULD be the case (literally none of this should be up for discussion), it is a relevant element of the considerations that for some women the lack of single sex spaces or reliable single sex care will go beyond self exclusion too.

I feel exactly the same about SP disclosing her previous sexual abuse, and about having to discuss her menstrual flooding as justification - but for different people it is these points that have helped them to join the dots or to properly empathise and understand the objections here.

ArabellaScott · 13/02/2025 13:07

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1890022590384951766

'Day 9 Peggie v NHS Fife & Dr Upton - Morning Session The NHS Fife Circus Rolls On

If NHS Fife’s goal was to present itself as a competent, fair-minded employer, today’s morning session did exactly the opposite. What we saw instead was a shambolic, inconsistent, and biased process, where Sandie Peggie was treated as a problem to be managed, while Dr. Beth Upton was handled with kid gloves.

From the first concerns raised about the changing room to the chaotic decision to suspend Peggie, the entire process reeks of institutional cowardice. The NHS didn’t just fail Peggie—it exposed its utter unwillingness to uphold single-sex spaces, even when female staff explicitly said they needed them. At the centre of today’s evidence was Esther Davidson, Peggie’s line manager, who spent the morning desperately trying to justify the unjustifiable. Her testimony was riddled with contradictions: she claimed she reviewed policies to find clarity, yet admitted NHS Fife had no formal policy on trans inclusion in single-sex spaces.

She also acknowledged that she had no written guidance to rely on—but despite this, Peggie was somehow expected to accept a situation that even management had to figure out on the fly. Instead of considering Peggie’s rights, the unwritten rule seemed to be: don’t question trans inclusion, no matter the cost. The timeline of events is particularly revealing. Peggie raised concerns in August, yet Davidson only gave her an answer in October, two months later—an answer that boiled down to "too bad, Beth can use the space".

No discussion with affected female staff, no consideration for alternatives, and no attempt at compromise. Then, after the Christmas Eve incident, Peggie was removed from work almost immediately, before any formal investigation had taken place. So, was she a danger to patients, or was she only a problem once she refused to back down? NHS Fife can’t seem to decide.

The Christmas Eve incident itself is another mess of contradictions. Peggie allegedly questioned Upton about chromosomes and referenced trans women in prison—a conversation that, even if it happened exactly as claimed, is hardly grounds for what was to come. Meanwhile, Upton’s account was taken at face value, without even considering Peggie’s side before forcing her out of work. And what’s more—this supposedly catastrophic event happened at midnight, when staff weren’t even expected to be using the changing room. Was this really about an unsafe work environment, or about punishing Peggie for saying something unacceptable?

Then we come to the farcical “investigation” process, which barely qualifies as such. Peggie was removed before HR had even spoken to her. Davidson admitted that no written evidence existed for the claim that Peggie had left a patient unattended, yet this was thrown in as an extra excuse to justify her removal. If patient safety was a real concern, why did it only come up once NHS Fife needed another reason to justify her suspension? The entire thing feels retrofitted—they needed a reason to get rid of Peggie, and this was the best they could cobble together.

But the most outrageous moment of the morning session came when Jane Russell KC, barrister for NHS Fife, decided to probe Peggie’s personal politics. Russell explicitly brought up Peggie’s support for Donald Trump, as if this was somehow relevant to whether she had been treated fairly.

Naomi Cunningham (Peggie’s barrister) rightly objected, and even the judge admitted it was a leading question. But the fact that it was asked at all is telling—this wasn’t about Peggie’s conduct, it was about making her look like the “wrong sort of person.” The implication was clear: if you hold gender-critical beliefs, you are fair game for workplace punishment.

By the end of the morning, it was abundantly clear that this was never about fairness, due process, or workplace safety. Peggie was removed because she refused to comply with a belief system she didn’t share. The policies were nonexistent, the process was biased, and the investigation was an afterthought. Meanwhile, Upton—who made no effort to accommodate female colleagues—was given total backing.

This was not a balanced workplace dispute. It was a one-sided ideological purge. The afternoon session will bring cross-examination of Esther Davidson by Naomi Cunningham, which promises to be far more revealing. If Davidson struggled this much under questioning from her own side, it’s hard to imagine how she will hold up under scrutiny from Peggie’s barrister. So far, NHS Fife’s defence has been flimsy, contradictory, and riddled with gaps—and that’s before even facing a real challenge. If this is the best they can do when trying to control the narrative, the real damage is yet to come.'

NotAGentleReminder · 13/02/2025 13:08

BettyBooper · 13/02/2025 12:55

Good question. I can't see that anything at all happened or changed. So why the long suspension and it suddenly ok for SP to come back to work?

From what I understood of ED's answers, because it took the investigation team this long to figure out a way of not having DU and SP on shift together (which would have been 'unsafe')

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