NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

JR - was there any other concern

ED - we wanted to offer her support and make sure no interaction with DU

JR - why did she reject shift change

ED - was going to be difficult for SP to work days because she had a dog, and so we offered shorter shifts on the weekends,

JR - when

JR - was there any other concern ED - we wanted to offer her support and make sure no interaction with DU

That's the real reason..to make sure she doesn't interact with God Almighty..no real concern for her well being.

I have no explanation then..... ED is showing she/ the NHS behaved inappropriately whilst being questioned by JR. Why did they think they could win this?

Now I feel aggrieved on behalf of Sandie's dog

Upton's explanation of what happened IS vague, though, isn't it? That's what came out yesterday. He cannot provide a clear description of what happened, and in parts of it, said that he personally was not clear what had actually happened. He assumed. He presumed. He supposed.

I can only assume it's so he can't be pinned down as a liar. Feature, bug, etc etc.

DU has almost been so clever. If he had waited for a few more incidents before pulling the trigger, he’d’ve been in a much stronger position.

Once he’s got her suspended, he’s got the momentum going enough that the NHS will grind her into dust to justify that initial suspension after the fact.

problem is, he didn’t push hard enough or step back quite smartly enough when he got the ball rolling and now he’s in danger of being squished, along with his handmaidens.

TDS is a serious problem for both sides of this and I would like to see GC people make a concerted effort to separate the biological and philosophical arguments about genderism from political figures, full stop. Anyone who ties this topic to a political tribe is making it harder to develop the cross-party, grassroots consensus we need to push back effectively and in a way that will actually last.

I am slightly tired myself of explaining that I knew and cared about this long before Spiked, Reform and Trump opportunistically climbed aboard the "No really, we care about women's rights" train and a pile of new GCs collectively decided that anyone left of Ghengis Khan is a genderist. They are their own Godwin' law ans they're not actually helping.

did she return to work

ED - she came back on day shift, we did half shifts,

JR - when was that

ED - I think the end of March

JR - SF note of meeting, read specific para please, a description of SPs beliefs, when was the first time you had understood those to be her beliefs

Ugh, how depressing

I do hope that there are some biological women at the Unison Women's Conference (I think they said men who thought they might become women at some point were very welcome - my paraphrasing): https://x.com/timorgxyz/status/1889834184098849234/photo/1

JR - SF note of meeting, read specific para please, a description of SPs beliefs, when was the first time you had understood those to be her beliefs

Another leading question by JR. GC beliefs are being framed negatively

ED - i think that was August because SP said at that point she didn't want to share changing room with DU.

JR - anything else you learned in this meeting

ED - SPs belief had not changed

JR - re different shifts, different departments, what are the rules on that

All this is confirming everything that we already assumed was going on.

But it's still making my blood boil actually witnessing them admit it all.

It's rage inducing.

And breathe and relax. And breathe and relax.

Green grass fluffy clouds. Green grass fluffy clouds.

And breathe in ............. And breathe out.

Annnnnnnd relax.

ED - people are offered different work when they can't do the job they were doing and during or after an IX

JR - email from Lottie to SP, what is she saying there

ED - telling SP she is coming back to work, potential shift pattern, make an opposite shift pattern to make her not

ED - i think that was August because SP said at that point she didn't want to share changing room with DU. JR - anything else you learned in this meeting ED - SPs belief had not changed

SP's beliefs had not changed.

Aka we hadn't managed to batter her into submission by our unreasonable treatment of her.

The University of Edinburgh deem it a micro aggression -

https://equality-diversity.ed.ac.uk/students/microaggressions/lgbtq-microaggressions/trans-and-or-non-binary-microaggressions/commontrans-and-non-binary-based-microaggression

Bloody hell, that's brought tears to my eye. I knew SP would donate the Crowdfund to some other cause. I am very happy she knows the world is watching and rooting for her.

What belief? SP not wanting to share the women's changing room with a man is not a belief!

I can't imagine how horrifying it must have been for SP to find out at that meeting that she was being suspended. It seems like it was the first time there had been a proper meeting with her to discuss the issue.

Imagine, you've raised an issue that you're concerned about, already waited from August to October to have any feedback at all, tried to sort it out yourself. And now you're the one being suspended, and there are vague mentions of patient safety issues . . .

I don't know how I would have reacted.

She must have been in horrific shock.

I cancelled my Unison membership many years ago, but considered rejoining just to go to the conference and make a stand. Unfortunately I'm injured and I literally cannot stand right now! Hoping there are fellow witches attending...

Yes this whole "you can't leave because that would be mean" thing is horrifying, with seriously dystopian ramifications.

Yet no one is accusing DU of aggression, micro or otherwise, for coming and going as he pleases. He took a lot of sick leave because he was so upset - if SP had done that would she be accused of "avoiding" him?

Legally protected beliefs!!

Unlike 'men are biological women'.

Why was HR not running the investigation?

i actually feel sorry for this woman. She has said she has never dealt with anything like this before and she’s been initially left managed an alleged ‘hate incident’

yes managers need to be involved but I would expect hr to be leading investigation and ensuring all steps taken are correct and legal.

So vague! And no urgency from them to pin him down on anything. The incompetence and the lack of giving a shit about anything other than the man who larps as a woman is shining through. And it is truly sickening.