NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #16

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming, possibly, in July. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15

interact with DU, and telling SP I would be in touch about planning return to work.

JR - ref to post meeting phone call, who took part in that

ED - I presume SP and Lottie,

JR - not you

ED - no

JR - 24th March phone call,

ED - I think that was when were trying to work out a time when she could come back, I think I made that phone call.

JR - what did you say

ED - we were trying to find the solution to her coming back, looking to plan a date and a time for her to come back to work,

JR - your email to Lottie, read and tell tribunal what you were

Maybe JR is secretly working WITH Sandie on a cunning plan to increase donations to her fundraiser? Because each time she highlights the egregious way Sandie has been treated, someone donates a bit more . . .

Yes, she's a cog but she's being turned by DU and her internalised views about women. Stern Sandie doesn't fit her view of what women should be like and caring Beth does. Plus of course she's knows, even if she won't say it out loud cos hurty feelz, he's a man and therefore his wishes trump everything.

I don't feel sorry for her....there was no need to bring up Donald Trump or Sandy's supposedly 'stern' demeanour.

telling Lottie

ED - I was giving lottie a quick catch up on where we were at, I was going to be off on holidays, I had been in contact with HR, SP would contact Lottie when she was back from annual leave, just giving her an update on where we are

JR - letter on 28 March

A cog in the totalitarian machinery that is gender ideology.

letter about suspension and return to work, have you seen before,

ED - I haven't been CC'd but I think I know the gist, (reading)

JR - reasons for return to day shift, would you describe your understanding of that reasoning

ED - as I said before was so that we could support

Also it's one thing to think that there are a small number of people who don't easily fit into binary sex categories because of DSDs, but it's quite another to then conclude that male and female have no meaning. Does he apply this logic to other conditions? Ironically, his relationship to reality sounds a bit... Trumpy.

I don't know where he got the idea that you don't need a man and a woman to create a baby - cloning? that recent gene editing experiment on mice that still required female mice for gestation and egg provision - but I would hazard a guess that it isn't going on in the Victoria Hospital maternity ward.

He claimed that gender identity is relevant to blood tests because of hormones, but hormones are just drugs/medication that can be taken for a variety of reasons, and there is no requirement for a trans person to take hormones.

He is either being dishonest or lacks basic deductive capacities.

The main concern is not to support SP at all; it is to keep SP away from DU.

I agree. Its disgusting. This is the horrible misogynistic thinking, this horrible misogynistic ideology leads people too.

These were not ' incidents of boundary setting', not ' incidents of self-protection', but ' incidents of avoidance.',

If she's really not been reading about the case and she's been living in the gender zealotry totalitarian bubble of NHS Fife, she's going to have a real shock when she realises the rest of the world does not agree with her and does not accept this unscientific belief being imposed upon them.

SP back into working, to limit contact with DU, allow us to start IX, and get SP back to work, confident we could manage that.

JR - another email

ED - Lottie was keeping in touch with SP, trying to get her back to work, her manager was off on long term sick, confirming that SP

She must have been thinking 'what the fuck just happened?!'.

And because she wasn't rushing around afterwards, howling greeting, and was actually being professional, she'll have been too 'stern'.

Wtf

Back of the net for NC.

Yet more 'training' of us to disregard our instinct or choice so that we stay to endure whatever pleases them.

would come back on 4 week phased return, she would come back as soon as possible.

JR - now email about return to work, what is your understanding of what's being said there, ref to compromise what was that about

ED - we were bringing SP back to on weekends only, we were trying

Totally. Hospitals went downhill after they got rid of the old-style matron.

I yearn for the Hattie Jacques type matron to return (Carry On film reference for youngsters).

Tells us (Veeerry patronisingly) science has moved on, two sexes is so last century elementary school biology etc.

Is this because our understanding of DSDs is greater now? I think some animals are hermaphrodites, but not humans. To my knowledge though, no man has fathered a child and then gone on to give birth to one, or vice versa.

I have to go out so will catch up, hopefully, when I get back. In any dispute between two people, you have to find out what happened from both people before you ask witnesses, surely. They haven't asked Sandi what happened from her perspective, they've blind sided her with a meeting where she probably thought she was being asked what happened and was told she was suspended. Putting Upton to one side, Fife NHS haven't done their job properly at all.

to find a common ground, to get her back to work, with senior support

JR - what is this other reference

ED - we wanted there to be a band 7 on all of SP's shift, so not evening work

JR - a suggestion of a band 6 what was that about

ED - but no one in Band 6 had any knowledge

Yes, 'incidents of boundary setting' is the perfect rephrasing, thank you.

Yes, transactivism remarkets women's need for privacy from men, as being specifically against transwomen. Because they're trans. Not because they're men.

Upton's only possible defence against why Sandy did not want to strip off in front of him can have nothing to do with his actual sex, and everything to do with his trans status.

In his head, It's the only way to twist it in his favour.

In his gender cult language, man and woman are self-ID terms, not references to the sex of an adult. I would suspect that were he and his wife to have their own biological child, he would see this as two women having a baby. No man needed.

Just had another look at that tiktok by Sally Pizarro that I posted, it's hard to watch her for the shortest time, everything about her, the fake smile and Edna Everage glasses are a hate crime in themselves. Anyway it confirms what very serious problems Sandie will have if/when this comes before the NMC. In fact I'm surprised she hasn't been up before them about it already, maybe she has already been reported to them and they are waiting for the outcome of the tribunal or maybe her managers are waiting for the tribunal to end before they make that complaint. Will they do it even if she wins do we think??

of the IX,

JR - why not acceptable,

ED - we had not discussed it

JR - now from Belinda Morgan (?), a new name

ED - thats our general manager

JR - what was that about designated contact person

ED - Lottie had taken over AS role as designated person during AS sick, but Lottie