NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #14

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13

The drama llama in this case would no doubt absolutely love to re-enact the scenario he has made up in his head, complete with tearful breakdown.

They could have made a tiny little diorama and painted little peg dolls and glued yarn and feathers and glitter to them to make each one unique so we would not be misunderstood.

JR: You were asked whether you were trying to end SP career, can you describe to panel consequences for your career if found to have harassed C?

DU: Quite a serious thing, I imagine there would be referral to GMC re fitness to practice, cd be a conduct hearing at work

Thats good to know, thanks

DU: If found to be harassment wd be v difficult to continue working bcs even if GMC / work ix didn't find unfit then anywhere I worked and used women's CR wd be risking complaints, would maybe being outing myself the whole time

TBF he can't remember whether or not he had a coat on, in the middle if winter...or the phone call to the BMA

I think this is really the key thing here.

What NC was getting at in her questioning about immersive role play was that Sandie refused to play along so she had to go because, unless everyone went along with it, he couldn't compel people to believe he is not a man. Anyone who questions it is a bigot and must go.

This was a campaign to get her ousted, if chronologically he only referred to her refusing to work for him after the Xmas eve issue, it acts in the favour of the C because it is evidence of him trying to oust her.

It's all about wrong think and not wanting others to wrong think (speak).

DU: GMC proceedings wd be pretty serious re continuing as a doctor, but there's also the humiliating nature of constantly being outed.

I think the minutiae of who was standing where in the CR are because there is significant disagreement between SP and DU's accounts.

IIRC, SP said that DU was changing during their conversation - that he entered in scrubs and left in his regular clothes. But DU says he didn't change on that occasion?

There are also disputes about what exactly SP said - about prisons and chromosomes. DU's inconsistent evidence more or less aligns with SP's account that she said it's "like the situation in prisons" but he maintains she said something about his chromosomes, which she denies.

He still thinks outing himself is a thing!!!

that she would use my refusal to agree with her harassment as a challenge, to organise moves to get me moved from that ward, the department.

That appears to me like the type of DARVO we are all familiar with.

Harriet Feldman is the Dr Upton fundraiser person

Fitness to practice?? harassment of SP least of your worries, mate!

I wondered that. If there's no evidence at all to support his suggestions that SP was out to get him, doesn't it just make him look like he was paranoid? Taking preemptive action based on your own catastrophising and emotional fragility is not an excuse - and to an observer would make it look more likely that he harassed her, surely?

JR: Last Q, at end of 3 days of questioning in which you have been constantly misgendered. C counsel called you a man, who does not care about women. Accused of immersive role play.

He needn't worry about being outed in future, that ship has most firmly sailed.

The first self aware thing he's said

JR: Compared to torturer in 1984, who waterboarded s/o. How do you feel about all this?

Has JR forgotten she called him ,'he'?

You've well and truly outed yourself, hon.

I am assuming that the DU contemporaneous notes take the form of some sort of word document that he keeps adding to as things happen. He must put dates alongside some events but not all.

When was that document first introduced into the record?
How can you tell what the actual edit dates are?
What stops him from adding or removing stuff up to the point a copy first appears in the record?
Has the tribunal accepted that it is accurate?

incoming hurty feelings

That was meant to be quoting a post a while back - sorry, my whole post disappeared and then came back again...

I'm sorry for what happened to your mum. Geriatric care across the NHS is an absolute nightmare. Some of the things I saw with my mum. It's not just in Scotland either it's across the bloody board. Think what it's like for oldies who don't have anyone to advocate for them.

Well that horse has bolted